Value of PF400

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Author Message   Robert Campion Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    I just purchased a 1978 Ibanez PF400 in mint condition for $380 Aussie Dollars. I've heard they are worth a helluva lot more than that, can somebody give me an idea of the price for one in any currency? It is a real nice guitar, i'm just a begginer, and it is a huge improvment from my old 'peavy eagle'!   JimBunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Vintage Guitar Price guide sets the price for a 1978 set neck PF400AV at $400 - $500 (US dollars). Bolt-on neck would be less. A 1978 PF300 set neck is $500 - $550. A 1978 PF300 bolt-on neck is $300 - $350. Jim   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Jim: Kinda curious as to why they would rate the 300 models higher than the top-of-the line 400s? Just to fill in some info on the Performer series. The '78 catalog shows that the line consisted of the 400, 300, 230 (triple pickups), 200 and 100 models.   Mathew Brock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    I wondered about that too. I have two PF400's - one in Midnight Olive and one in Antique Violin. Absolutely stellar guitars. I liked the first one so much I had to find a second. More comfortable to me than any Les Paul I've picked up. I have some pictures I could scan if anyone's interested. It is my understanding that the PF300's had arched plywood tops over a slab body, like the bolt-on LP copies of earlier years. So there is actually some space between the top and the underlying mahogany. Best way to tell is to rap a knuckle on the top around the bridge. You should also be able to see the space after removing a pickup. Can anyone confirm this? The ply they used for the top was often wildly figured, perhaps making them more desirable. The PF400's had solid maple caps, but they weren't figured at all. Later, Mat   Mathew Brock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Here are my two babies. Both 1978 serial numbers. Both insanely heavy. Incredibly smooth players if a little hard to shoulder for extended periods. Official colors are Midnight Olive and Antique Sunburst. Only two colors offered for the 400's as far as I know. Later, Mat   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Matthew: Glad to see you got the knack of uploading pictures. It adds a lot to the board's value. Your PF400s are very nice! 2 peas in a pod. When you say they are heavy, can you give us a weight? How about some closeups? As far as construction, ply tops. I know nothing about the Performer series. I can say that my Custom Agent is constructed very strangely. A bunch of blocks sandwiched between thin laminates and what sounds like a hollow top (most noticeable when tapping behind the bridge.)   JimBunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    John / Mat, What does the AV stand for in PF400AV? I would have expected the PF400 and PF300 to be about equal in value. I paid $230 (US dollars) for a PF200 (bolt-on neck, natural finish). It is one of my favorite guitars and I play it more than some of my other more expensive vintage guitars. Very underated guitar. I am looking for a higher end PF300 or PF400 because I am so happy with the PF200. Jim   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Jim: AV stands for Antique Violin. I notice they don't have this color in the '98 catalog. The AR2000 comes in VV, Vintage Violin. I assume you have the VGM Price Guide (based on your initial response in this thread). What do they say about the prices on the Concert series guitars? There were CN250s, 200s and 100s. Do they list '77s? Thanks.   Harold Wherry (Able3) Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Mathew / John, The Vintage Guitar Price basicly says: Concert CN-250, 1978 - 1979 $500 - $600 These are bolt-neck guitars, Super 80 pickups, 3/4 Vine Inlay on the neck, to bad they did not use "real" Pearl for the Inlay, it would have increased the value of the instrument. I believe as time continues that the VG Price Guide will list more Ibanez guitars and more pictures of Ibanez Guitars. Perhaps with increased photos and guitars more people will purchase the VG Price Guide. Harold   mathew brock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Here are some closeups. The AV, which is the heavier of the two, weighs in at just shy of 13 lbs. I imagine the MO is about a lb lighter. I told you they were heavy. Not only do they hurt your back when standing up, they cut off the circulation to your leg when seated. Still, the necks are so smooth... The fret profile is a little different than any other old Ibanez I've played. Sort of a medium height wide. I think this would make a good discussion topic - Ibanez definitely used a good variety of fretwire throughout the "vintage" period. I've played some early 80's Artists with almost triangular frets. Hard to slide around on. Then I've seen some ash Professionals with SUPER WIDE low frets. Later, Mat   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Matt: Outstanding pictures. These were definitely LP killers in '78. I wonder what they sold for in '78? How did you find them? 13 lbs! Now that's heavy. As for the fretwire thread. Go ahead and start one.   Mathew Brock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    John, The MO I found at a small guitar show in Atlanta in 1993. I was in town to visit a friend. The AV was a net deal with a guy from Baltimore. They seem to be pretty scarce. I've only seen one other since I started paying attention six years ago. Or perhaps they just rarely turn up in the used market. Mat   JimBunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    John / Mat, 13 pounds! My PF200 is only about 10 pounds. One of the reasons I like it so much is that it is much lighter and more comfortable than my 1976 Les Paul Custom but I can still get that Les Paul tone with the PF200. Why is there so much difference in weight between a PF200 and a PF400? According to Ibanez Vintage web site the PF200 has a maple top and a mahogany back. The neck is maple with a rosewood finger board. Jim   Mathew Brock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Jim, The PF200 has an arched laminated maple top. It is not solid maple. There are actually hollow spaces under the top. Tap around the top with your finger - you will hear a hollow area around the brige. I think you can see it with a pickup removed. The PF400 was the only model in the PF series that has a solid carved maple top. The PF300 had the laminated top too, but had a set neck. The PF230 was a PF200 with three humbuckers. The PF100 was a less fancy PF200. The PF200 was basically the post-lawsuit equivalent of the famous bolt-neck LP copies. I used to have a pre-lawsuit bolt-neck LP copy, and I thought it was a great guitar. Very acoustically resonant, maybe because of the "hollow" top. Mat   Ray Whitlock Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    A few comments... I have owned a '78 PF-300 (set neck) in Midnight Olive and a PF-200 (bolt-on) in Antique Violin Sunburst. Both were very playable instruments - typical of 70's Ibanez's. I would caution readers to view the VG guide pricing with "a grain of salt". Especially for non-mainstream gear, they don't always represent reality. Concerts for $500-600 is a bit high. All models in the Concert series are bolt-on construction. The only one that may have collector value is the model with the vine inlays. Other models are in the 250-350 range if in excellent original condition, based on my experience here in the Southeast.   JimBunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    At the Arlington, Texas October 1999 guitar show I saw a PF200 and the dealer was asking $500. It was in excellant shape and I think it was a burgundy color. Jim   CJ Landry Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    I have a PF300 that I am the second owner and the original owner is a friend. Wierdest thing about mine is the body of the guitar is splitting in half. The two ppieces of wood that were glued together at the factory are serperating at the seam and I unfortunately think it will fully seperate to about half the width of the body. Right now there is a 3/4" gap and it has been growing for the past 15 years. I believe the original owner kept it in the trunk of his car in the hot Texas sun too many times before I got and this has ruined a beautiful guitar. I wished there was something I could do but more than one guitar expert has told me I am out of luck. Use it for parts is what I was told!! CJ Landry   JimBunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Finally got a digital camera and thought I would post a picture of my PF200. Jim   Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Re: Construction of PF300. I bought a MO PF300 for $320 Aussie Dollars - thats about $180 in Yank bucks. It had been well gigged and looked a bit weary. My Dad is a luthier so we decided to refinish it. I can confirm that the top is maple ply (top ply is highly figured, plys underneath look to be pine!). The body is made of 20 pieces of Phillipine Mahogany with a lateral piece of maple ply sandwiched through the centre of the body. There is indeed a cavity between the ply top and mahogany body which I believe contributes to the open dynamic tone of the guitar which is very different to the compressed nasal sound of a Gibson.   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Mark: Thanks for the great report on the PF300 construction. I wonder if that pine-looking wood was birch. That was used a lot in various Ibanez guitars (the Custom Agent and many LP replicas, to name two.) How'd the refinish job turn out?   Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Hi John, Being new to Internet it's great to see a response to my posting. It looks as though this page has been pretty quiet. Hope it amps up a bit! I have posted other areas of this site under copies (firebird) and semi's (FG100 and Joe Pass)if you're interested. The refinish on my guitar is not yet completed. We are using a 2pak polyurethane black lacquer as a base which will then be finished over with a 2pak clear poly. Will do 2 - 3 coats of black, rub back, then use about 8 coats of clear. The gold hardware has been replated and looks absolutely deluxe. The refinisher told me that factory gold on guitars is done with a process called Flash Plating. This is a very light coating of gold that would wear off almost immediately if it were not lacqured over to protect it. Unfortunately the lacquer is never perfect and breaks down easily. This type of finish is really only suitable for light fittings which are almost never touched by human hands. The Flash process takes less than a minute in the gold bath. the other end of the scale is jewellery plating which takes about 1 hour in the bath and resists constant contact and handling. I chose to go for 30 minutes in the gold! I must tell you that stock gold looks terrible in comparison - real yellow and with no depth. I did not get the tuners redone as the bodies can't be disassembled, however the tuning buttons were done. Cheers, Mark I can't wait for the guitar to be finished as it will look incredible.   Timo Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    I am curious as to how much it cost you to replate your hardware. I assume you are talking about the bridge and tailpiece as well as the tuner buttons. I am not familiar with your model so I'am just guessing. Some while ago I inqured locally (California-USA) about getting a Gibralter bridge and Quick Change tail piece replated gold and the cost was exorbidantly high-near $300. I decided to just order replacements from Ibanez knowing that it would take MANY months to get parts from them let alone the right parts. I got the parts 4 months later but I know from experience that the stock plating is very thin and it's just a matter of time before it starts to look shabby. In fact the bridge already had the beginings of corrosion bubbles like you would see under automoble paint if the metal was rusting. Granted, this is an original Gibralter style not the Gibralter II so it's probably been sitting on a shelf someware for 15+ years. Also, it showed up from Ibanez wrapped in a paper towel in a sandwich bag. Gez! I seem to have rather corrosive presperation so that period beautiful perfect plating is going to be short for me but I've seen the complaint of poor quality Ibanez plating several times before on this site so I'd like to hear more about what you paid. I'm certain I'm not the only one either. It sounds like you are very happy with the job that was done for you. Cheers   Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Timo, You're right! I am happy with my plating job. Here's what I had done: - 2 Pick up covers - 2 Strap buttons - 1 Pick up selector fastening ring - 1 complete Gibralter bridge (all parts including studs) - 1 Scruggs tailpiece including studs and allen screws - 6 tuning buttons The cost was $220 for 30 minutes in 18K gold. It seems I got a great deal as $220 Aussie dollars would be about $160 US dollars. I don't know if this refinisher would take on international orders, or if you'd want to risk sending your parts around the world, but if your interested I'll speak to him. Cheers, Mark   JohnS Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Mark: Are you going to lacquer the parts now that they are replated? Or isn't it necessary with the heavier process?   Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    John, I don't believe it will be necessary. The quality of plating is very high. You can tell there is around 50 times the amount of gold in the parts when compared to a stock finish. I'm sure that if I wipe down the guitar after use - a habit I would advise everyone to get into - I'll encounter no problems. By the way, it isn't just Japanese or Korean parts that suffer from crap plating. My Dad uses Grover Imperial tuners on the Archtops he builds and the gold comes off those really fast. He is currently making a complaint to Grover on behalf of his customers who are unsatisfied. Cheers, Mark   Mark Munchenberg Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    Correction: The lacquer being used on my PF300 is actually a 2Pak acid cured lacquer, not poly as previously stated. The poly is much harder than an acid cured laquer and may rob some tone. The softer acid cure is more like a nitrocellulose in that it does not dampen body resonance to the same degree. Cheers, Mark.   Jim Bunch Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:59 am:    PF-400 sells for $475 on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1401352524 Jim   Kcscott (Kcscott) Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 7:51 am:    Hey- I've got a line on a 1978 PF400MO. It has some checking and has nicks on the binding around the body. I think I can get it for around $250US. It sounds great but it is rough. Is this a good price? Will the checking tend to get worse? Also, how many PF400's were made in '78 &'79?   Johns (Johns) Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2002 - 1:55 pm:    KC: I'd say $250 was very good. PF400s were meant to be LP competitors that will probably stand toe to toe with any LP of the time. They have solid maple caps, mahogany bodies and tri-sound circuitry on the Super 70 neck pickup. The only drawback that I have heard is they are heavy. You probably need to keep the guitar out of temperature extremes and control the humidity to keep the guitar from checking further. I.e., keep it out of the car truck or stored in the basement. No idea on the number manufactured. I think it's a shame that production only lasted a few yearS.   Chrlz (Chrlz) Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 11:20 am:    Hi, gang. This is my first post to the Collectors World -- regarding my beloved PF300. Hope it's OK to post here on this thread; I didn't know where else to start. I snapped up my PF300 from the Mars Music used rack for $300 a couple of years ago. I had been primarily an acoustic player (Martin), and was wanting to make a commitment to learning to play electric at least respectably (acoustic and electric: entirely different instruments, you know.) Anyway, I've got to say this PF300 is an exceptionally fine musical instrument. It's nfinitely playable, infinitely solid and true, and it holds an amazing range of tones thanks to the tri-sound pickup in the neck position. I know people like to make a fuss over fancy inlays and whatnot, but I dare say I have not found another guitar that can best this one from a performance standpoint. (I do have substantial experience with other electrics, including a Les Paul Standard, an EC Signature Strat, a Standard American Strat, a Jackson Dinky Reverse and an Ampeg Short Scale Jazz guitar) The PF300 is a nice enough looking guitar, but without glamour and flash. It's responsive, faithful and true -- just the kind of guitar a fellow wants to marry! Incidentally, I am missing two of the original knobs and the original pickguard. Is there a source from which I might procure these?   Orval (Orval) Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 7:04 pm:    if the knobs are black with rubber rings, i have them.   Chrlz (Chrlz) Posted on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:38 am:    Yes! Black with rubber rings. How can I buy them from you? And do you know where I can get the pick guard?   Daveyanco (Daveyanco) Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2002 - 12:35 pm:    Hello to all, anyone got one of these PF230's? I got one, black with 3 gold pu's, custom style features, "turtle shell" type pick guard, great feeling neck, sounds & overall feel is great too. Very clean, afew handling marks, that's it. Not my specialty of collecting and will sell or trade out sometime, but a great guitar... I also got a flametop Gibson Les Paul and in alot of ways the Performer is more comfortable to me. Dave.   Otis (Otis) Posted on Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 6:33 pm:    Were the PF 400s only made for two years? If not what yrs? Thanks JW   Munch (Munch) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 7:29 am:    Hi All, If any of you have been wondering whatever happened to the restoration of my PF300, I am pleased to say the wait is over. My father has been very busy over the past 2 years with building archtops for his customers, moving house, dealing with health issues, and retiring from the workforce. Suffice to say, my trusty Ibanez restoration hit the bottom of the priority list. I am visiting Dad over the Xmas break and will be using his digital camera to post some pics here. Can't wait to bring my baby home to Papa!! Cheers, Mark   Munch (Munch) Posted on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 7:47 am:    Hi, Just found this photo of the black PF300 with the finish stripped off the top. It was incredible to find that amount of flame under a black paint job! Cheers, Mark   Munch (Munch) Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 9:06 pm:    Hello to John and all happy Ibaneezers, Best wishes for the festive season! As promised here are some shots of my newly restored PF300. This guitar was a well worn players guitar featuring numerous dents and scratches, green corroded hardware, and stripped screw holes and such. It was purchased at the right price and was used extensively by me in my old '70's rock cover band. The restoration was something of an experiment - particularly with regard to the refurbishment of the hardware, and I must say, i am very pleased with the results. So here are some shots: Hope you like them. If you have any questions about the process, please feel free to post them here. Regards, Mark   Dave_G (Dave_G) Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:34 pm:    Mark..FANTASTIC job ! How expensive was the re guilding of the hardware and what did it involve ?   Dave_G (Dave_G) Posted on Sunday, December 29, 2002 - 10:40 pm:    Mark..Never mind, I read the previous posts !   Sixvsix (Sixvsix) Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 4:12 am:    That looks like a first class job Mark. I know you have to be careful when replating some of the old alloy materials. I believe that in the 50’s and 60’s, Gibson manufactured their parts from a material called 'Myzack' or something like that. I understand that this material can disintegrate if you use the wrong solution when cleaning/plating parts. Do you know if Ibanez parts could suffer the same unhappy end if they were cleaned and replated incorrectly? Looking at the previous posts here, it looks like you’re all paying lots of money to get replating done. I think Tim Walker had a replate on his recent Artwood Twin acquisition. I don’t know how much Tim paid but I managed to get quite a lot of Tele/Strat parts done in gold a few months ago for about £55 which is roughly $85 US. I was very pleased with the results but had to wait a few weeks for the parts. This was only due to the fact that it was cheaper to wait until there were other gold parts to plate from other customers. six   Tim_Walker (Tim_Walker) Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 10:16 am:    Hi, the twin parts haven't been replated, but a friend of mine (an Artist nut) has replated hardware & pickup covers for Artists quite successfully. The finish just depends how badly damaged they are to begin with....deep pitting is the worst thing to rectify.   Sixvsix (Sixvsix) Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 2:25 pm:    Sorry Tim, I still suffering from the Chrimbo hangover (head fuzzy). One of the Tele bridges came back with some etched-in pitting that could not be removed It was ok once the saddles went back on. Worth considering, that if you have a badly pitted item it may look worse once it’s been replated.   Munch (Munch) Posted on Monday, December 30, 2002 - 4:50 pm:    Hi Six, Yes, it is a first class job. I am very happy with the work my Dad did on the guitar, and the gold plating is excellent. Ibanez parts were made from what is known as pot metal - some mysterious low grade alloy. Pot metal is very suseptable to corrosion and is not very strong when compared to brass or other more pure metals. Some tunomatic style bridges made from pot metal have been known to collapse from string tension! In terms of cost, I think I paid around $200 for the plating which equates to about $90US. Cheers, Mark   Munch (Munch) Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 6:06 pm:    Hi fellow Ibaneezers, Feast your eyes on this pic - has any guitar ever looked so drool-worthy?? This is a professional shot of my restored PF300. Cheers, Mark   Maniac (Maniac) Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 11:18 pm:    Munch, Man, That's the nipples on the tits :0   Munch (Munch) Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 5:38 am:    Mike, I'll take that as a compliment. I am actually thinking of printing up a calendar for 2004 featuring a different guitar for each month. I have some friends in the printing industry and figure I can give a calender to anyone who wants one. This way I can share my collection with everyone! Cheers, Mark   Mr_Roadstar (Mr_Roadstar) Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 11:59 am:    Mark, I'll take TWO !! Helluva good idea. Cheers Steve   Fredb (Fredb) Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:00 pm:    As a Yank and in the interest of international relations, can say that I've never heard "nipples on the tits" used in U.S. English before   Funkle (Funkle) Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 4:28 pm:    Munch, I'd be interested in getting in on that calendar deal. I certainly don't mind throwing a few bucks in for printing costs. -Sven   Munch (Munch) Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 6:20 am:    Sven, Thanks for the offer. I'll probably be able to print it for free, but may ask you for some $$$$ towards postage. Will give you all a heads up when it is ready. Cheers, Mark   Dlmorley (Dlmorley) Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 3:32 am:    I have a PF350 and this has a carved maple top. It is probably the closest one to a real LP   Sixvsix Username: Sixvsix Registered: 03-2002 Posted on Wednesday, July 27, 2005 - 7:26 am:    Now, if this was in Midnight Olive: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7339561420&category=33043&rd= 1 six   Zoso Username: Zoso Registered: 10-2006 Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 6:19 pm:    Munch, if your still around here, what tuners are these and how did you get the buttons off for plating? I gave up on plating my 1978 velve tune tuners because they appear to be pressed on, no screw.   Munch Username: Munch Registered: 02-2001 Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 10:05 pm:    Hi Zoso, The tuners are the original Ibanez Star tuners, made by Gotoh I believe. The tuning buttons come off by loosening and taking out the tension screws. The buttins just slide off the shaft. Cheers, Mark

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