Clifton /Ibanez relationship

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Author Message   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:39 am:    Hi all, Love the site! I've been lurking about awhile. I'm trying to place a guitar in chrono-logical history. It's a Clifton. Similar to 78 musician series. Clifton logo(certainly Japanese made) Stop tailpiece with ornate scroll and microtuners. Four bolt bound neck. Trisound pickups. Could it be made in Fuji Gen? Any ideas?   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:42 am:    oops! here's a pic-   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:50 am:    another shot   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 12:09 pm:    Sorry try again - a newbie to the board!   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:04 pm:    Looks nice... Does this thing have a serial number? If it starts with an F, then you could be right, but there are more factories in the Nagano region who could have manufactured it, such as Matsumoku, Tokai, Daion, Kasuga, Iida... Ginger   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:24 pm:    Hi Ginger Yes it has a small rectangular silver tag behind the headstock that says 850129. No F as does my AF200. It is an amazing playing guitar. No dead spots, 24 fret neck, veneered and bound peghead and very well made. Very similar in build quality to all the Ibanez guitars I've owned over the years. I've asked some of the best as to what this is and no one has been able to identify it. It was sold to me as a custom built but no way can it be. The finish is high quality production, the tailpiece is nothing like I've seen before and the pickups are very high quality. I've owned well over 200 hundred guitars so I have some experience. Just thought you all over here might help me out. I've very much enjoyed lurking about over the last two years and continue to keep my AF200 and AS200 handy at all times. Thanks   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:14 pm:    Hmmm... I was thinking of Daion as the manufacturer: http://home.att.net/~daion/electrics.html The brand disappeared in 1983 says Daion online, but I suspect that production continued in those facilities for the new owner(s). I think the Daion luthiers worked as contractors for other firms and that Ibanez was one of them (which would explain the D in some acoustics serial numbers). I also found a luthier by the name of Mo Clifton in London, but he makes about 8 instruments per year. So the serial number 850129 would be ridiculously high for his small workshop. That would mean 11 instruments per month. Ginger   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:50 pm:    Hmm, the Daion line is a lot closer than anybody else has pointed me. Congratulations. Knobs and spacing looks consistent but why a four bolt neck when a neck through would be the obvious choice as the Daion shows? The four bolt is a very nicely executed three piece maple neck with a very tight neck slot. Better than any Fender I've had. About the same as a Kubicki guitar. I talked with Mo Clifton. He primarily builds basses but he did say he has had one or two inquiries about the guitar name and he has no clue. Thanks again   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 7:26 am:    This Clifton looks like a combination of parts from Westone guitars made by Matsumoku (and others?). http://www.westone.info/index.html I remember having read something about Clifton park, New York, a guitar shop and guitar lessons etc ????? Juha   Bassassin Username: Bassassin Registered: 1-2006 Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2007 - 3:04 pm:    Oh, that's very, very pretty. Styling-wise, it says early 80s to me - that Alembic-esque stripey/sandwich body, SuperStrat-ish shape & a slightly pointy headstock. Are you certain it's Japanese - does it have "Made In Japan" anywhere on it? It's worth remembering that Cort in Korea were putting out some pretty sexy stuff by the early 80s. Anyway, whatever it is, it's gorgeous - so feel free to post more pics! Jon.   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 1:13 am:    Thanks all, I'm pretty sure it's Japanese just from all the people looking it over. Though it does not say made in Japan anywhere. I just A/Bed it with a AS200 from 1993 and the pickups are tri sound wired and have even a wider range than the AS. Also A/Bed it with a Gibson 357, AF200, ES175 and Ibanez Gem and it holds its own. Impressive. The pickups just rock! Don't think it's a Westone as it has a nicely executed bound neck and headstock with three piece maple neck and no tremola. Funny you mention Alembic. I thought along those lines too. I was in San Francisco visiting Alembic in the early years and remember them showing me a guitar they were making for Jerry Garcia that had the stripes. They had an old bird's eye maple table they had bought at a garage sale they were making into his guitar. Yes, I've been around a bit. Thanks again for you help in trying to nail down this ax. It definitely is a keeper and plays really well. when I get back from my travels I'll post some more detailed pics of the tailpiece since I've not seen one like it.   Gemberbier Username: Gemberbier Registered: 5-2006 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 12:54 pm:    With a serial number like this (850129) PLUS these early 80's looks, my impression is that it was made in 1985. That is just after the Daion brand ceased to be, and what was left was a plant with a bunch of luthiers who had to eat. I think any trading company could order guitars there and sell them under any brand. That goes for Hoshino/Ibanez but also for smaller firms with unknown brands. What counts IMO is that the quality of an instrument is good. I think for instance that a Bradley 2355m is just as good as an Ibanez 2355m, because it's built by the same luthiers. So as an instrument this Clifton is what it is: a well built guitar. As a collector's item it's more difficult to determine the value of it, because nobody knows them... that's why there is no DEMAND for this brand. My advice would be to keep and enjoy it, because you probably will NOT get a decent price for it. I know, it's not fair, but that's how the market works. Ginger   Talajuha Username: Talajuha Registered: 11-2006 Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2007 - 5:56 pm:    I didn't say it is Westone. It is Clifton because it has the label. I said it is perhaps made by Matsumoku because it has parts that look like parts on guitars made by Matsumoku. Matsumoku made many high class guitars. http://www.matsumoku.org/guitars.html Absolutely it is not Ibanez, not even if it was made in a factory in which Hoshino had Ibanezes made. Probably it is one of many nice guitars made in Japan, Korea or Xxxx and has its value as a player. Juha   Soundtherapist Username: Soundtherapist Registered: 10-2007 Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 1:43 am:    Thanks all again for the input. Yes, it's a player so I really don't care about its value since it's a keeper. Talajuha - I think that it may indeed be Matsumoku as you think as I had a friend who is an Ibanez endorsee check it out and he immediately thought - Aria/ Westone - Thank you for your comments. You all are awesome! Your input is appreciated. And quick responses. I'm off to go play my latest acquisition a 1999 AS200 that is mint. Owned by a good player and fantastic caretaker of instruments.

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