Understanding Velve-tune tuners

[chazmo]

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some instructions / guidance with the late-70s Vevetunes that I have on my AW-60 (and forthcoming AW-120, if all goes well).

The barrel screws into the case and has a little grooved collar to make finger tightening easy to do.  I presume this is in lieu of an outer screw as most modern tuners have, is that right?  The tuning knob itself enters the barrel with what looks like a square cross-section shaft that I think is physically attached to the knob.  Without taking one apart, I'm a bit confused...  The shaft (and, I think the barrel) seems to back out of the casing if you loosen strings and the barrel itself isn't tight.  Plus, as you tighten the barrel, it seems to increase resistance on the rotation of the knob.  If this whole thing comes out when I loosen strings, have I screwed the pooch and need the help of a watchmaker to put it back together, or will it just go right back in?

Does anyone have an exploded view of one of these things?  I'm trying to figure out if there's some optimal tightness for the barrel, and/or optimal distance for the shaft to be exposed.  Is snugging up the barrel supposed to have a "locking" effect?

[ChuckE99]

Twisting the little grooved collar thingy locks down the tuner. That's about all I know. Loosen it a bit, tune the guitar, tighten it. Works pretty well for me. I've never had a problem with them. I don't have an exploded view though.

[gemberbier]

Absolutely a good question Charlie!
As you perhaps know, I have a Yamaha SG400 and I was very lucky and happy when I found two old Yamaha SG cases AND... in one of them the manual of a Yamaha SG including the Yamaha tuners: if you tighten the screw that attaches the knob to the shaft, you increase the resistance. (Btw, the second case is where my LP Standard DC lives, Gibson cases are ridiculously expensive, and the come from manufacturers like DATT, TKL, Levy... and if you compare them with other products of these firms, you'll see what I mean).

I experienced the same principle with the tuners of my Ibanez Artstar  AC100, but they are more recent and different from the Velvetuners, they are more like ordinary oil bath Gotohs or Schallers.

But I have a few of these vintage ones on my ST50, but unfortunately I have no case and no candy with it (yet).

Perhaps Juergen (Yogi) can help. I think he's got more parts documentation than I do.


Ginger

[BCy2k]

You probably don't want to hear this, but I sort of gave up on dealing with the thumb shaft tightener thingies on the velvetuners. I just keep mine at a fairly normal, 'medium' tension such that it's still easy to change strings and they also stay in tune just fine. They're undeniably great tuning machines and all that, but I really don't mess with the goofy thumb tension adjusters any more than necessary.

[Roland_G303]

You probably don't want to hear this, but I sort of gave up on dealing with the thumb shaft tightener thingies on the velvetuners.

I did the same thing Bob.  They seem like a cool idea and they are great tuners.  I just tightened mine up and tune.

Patrick

[ChuckE99]

If the tighteners are loose, the tuner literally won't hold a tune. So for me it's always a little snug. I tune, then just thumb-tighten the wheels so they are snug. I long ago lost the tiny wrench thingy (which is probably worth more than a truss-rod cover by now).

[BCy2k]

Exactly - finger tight, but not so much that they can't still be loosened with my fingers. That's all I'd recommend. I'm pretty sure I still have one of the little wrench tightener things in one of my cases.

[Mongo]

I've always just snugged them up until the tuner had a nice (velvety) drag on them.
They always held tuning and never a problem with backlash.

BTW, I never got one of those nice little wrenches, just used my fingers...

[cmangeot]

Hmmmmm.

I have about three or four of those things......time to reproduce and hit evil bay!!!!!!!

Ill be on easy street in no time.

Chris

[chazmo]

So, what little wrench are you guys talking about?  Is that something to grab the ridged collar?  If so, well that's odd since that's easy to just finger tighten.

OK, so I understand what you guys said.  Do you find that when the collar is a little loose, the whole barrel starts backing out when you unwind a string?

If I take it to the ultimate extreme and back the whole barrel out, am I going to be in a world of hurt?  I'm considering some light lubrication and I think I'd like to partly disassemble the machines to do that.  Mistake??

[BCy2k]

So, what little wrench are you guys talking about?  Is that something to grab the ridged collar?  If so, well that's odd since that's easy to just finger tighten.

It's a little tool that has a "nub" that fits into the little hole on the ridged collar there, then wraps partially around the ridged collar. You crank it around to really put some (totally unnecessary IMHO) torque on the collar to tighten (read "totally over-tighten" - again IMHO) the collar. This results in the tuner button being ridiculously stiff and difficult to turn if it's cranked down extra hard. I find the finger tight method to be best - it gives you the nice, added tuning stability you need, while keeping the tuner reasonably adjustable if you need to go to a drop D or just need to adjust your tuning due to temperature or whatever.

OK, so I understand what you guys said.  Do you find that when the collar is a little loose, the whole barrel starts backing out when you unwind a string?

I'm not sure if I've experienced this Chazmo. I have loosened it up to the point where I loose tuning stability - along the lines of what Chuck mentioned if you let the collar get too loose, but I've never seen what you describe on a velvetuner because the gear housing is totally sealed. Are you talking about the opposite end if the tuner button shaft? Where there is sometimes a kind of black circle opposite the tuner button side of the gear housing? I have seen that barrel start to come out when I remove/change/replace the tuner buttons themselves. But the barrel gets pulled back into the gear housing as I re-tighten the set screw that holds in the tuner button. This can't happen on velvetuners because they don't have one of these. We may not be talking about the same thing here. 

If I take it to the ultimate extreme and back the whole barrel out, am I going to be in a world of hurt?  I'm considering some light lubrication and I think I'd like to partly disassemble the machines to do that.  Mistake??

By 'barrel' do you mean loosening up the collar on the button shaft to the point that it comes off? If so, hmmm, I've never quite done that. I always re-tightened it before it came out. I didn't think it was necessary to lubricate them. Someone here will know - but it isn't me.

[chazmo]

Ah, so that's what the little hole in the collar is for!  I see!  Agreed, that would seem unnecessary, but I guess it'd come in handy if someone had overly tightened it.

Thanks, BC.   Well, I seem to recall that when I used my hand crank to quickly loosen a string, the barrel unwound and the shaft seem to be more exposed than it was before I started.  I was afraid the whole thing would come out.  I'll have to take some pictures next time I do this to clarify what I'm saying, BC.

[gemberbier]

So, what little wrench are you guys talking about?  Is that something to grab the ridged collar?  If so, well that's odd since that's easy to just finger tighten.

OK, so I understand what you guys said.  Do you find that when the collar is a little loose, the whole barrel starts backing out when you unwind a string?

If I take it to the ultimate extreme and back the whole barrel out, am I going to be in a world of hurt?  I'm considering some light lubrication and I think I'd like to partly disassemble the machines to do that.  Mistake??

Charlie,

I think they mean that small hook spanner (US = hook wrench), that we saw included in the case candy package on eBay about a year ago. I think it was under the old soft and the link to that auction won't work anymore. I hope someone copied the pix.


Ginger

[chazmo]

Makes sense, Ginger.  Thanks!