Is this site reliable?

[Pierrot]

According to your own experience, would you say this Argus site is reliable, refering to prices of Ibanez second hand guitars (or any other brand, BTW)?

http://www.guitareelectrique.com/argus_iba.html

If so, it would be a great help for all of us..

[gemberbier]

It's a vintage dealer from Switzerland.
The prices are meant as a help for insurance purposes etc., but they seem to be based on price data of the guitars they sold. That means that for a lot of models the info is out of date (much too low).
Just try to find a 2408 model for EUR 620.- or  EUR 800.-
The last one we know of went for $3500.- (now 2416 EUR).

You cannot and should not trust it for 100%, so it's not reliable.
Sometimes it's better than nothing, but even then you should try to verify what you found there. There prices reflect all kinds of different situations on the Swiss vintage market. There was NEVER one moment at which they had ALL mentioned guitars in the shop. So, if they sold a Dragon for EUR 620.- in let's say 1993, what does that tell us now?
I could buy an Aria Dragon then for 650 guilders then.
All we know is that was considered to be the recent second hand value then.
Ibanez was not considered to be collectible like Fender, Gibson, Gretsch in 1993. So they gave you 50% of the original RRP if you bought a new axe.

The idea of RARITY did not play a role in setting the RRP.
2355 jazz boxes were sold for $395.- new.
Now we pay $1250-1650 for a good one.



Ginger

[Pierrot]

Hi Ginger,

Thanks for your answer. Seems to be rather out of date actually.

An example:

http://www.hispasonic.com/comunidad/guitarra-ibanez-lonestar-electroacustica-pastilla-midi-integ-t221333.html

Seller asks 400€ plus shipping, argus says 180€....

Strange guitar BTW

[jeapson]

Pierrot, the guitareelectrique website is pure fiction and non-sense when it comes to market prices. I remember they mention second hands Joe satriani models JS3 JS4 or JS5 as selling around 1100 Euros used whereas these sell between $6000 and $10000 (and sometimes even beyond). This is absolutely NOT a reliable source.

[Pierrot]

Pierrot, the guitareelectrique website is pure fiction and non-sense when it comes to market prices. I remember they mention second hands Joe satriani models JS3 JS4 or JS5 as selling around 1100 Euros used whereas these sell between $6000 and $10000 (and sometimes even beyond). This is absolutely NOT a reliable source.

Thank you jeapson.

A pity, though, it would had been of great help, if correctly updated, and not only for Ibanez. Cruel world!!!


 

[gemberbier]

Pierrot, the guitareelectrique website is pure fiction and non-sense when it comes to market prices. I remember they mention second hands Joe satriani models JS3 JS4 or JS5 as selling around 1100 Euros used whereas these sell between $6000 and $10000 (and sometimes even beyond). This is absolutely NOT a reliable source.

I think $6,000-$10,000 is really sick.
$10,000 was just the asking price for a JS4:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:Pquw4yjbYIQJ:satrianiforum.com/ar/t2923.htm+Ibanez+JS4&hl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=nl&client=firefox-a

The winning bid was $4,000.- and that's more than enough for a plank.
Ebay Item Number #7420461293

So there is a lot of fiction and in many asking prices on eBay too.

The Argus list is not just BS.
It is a mix of some out-of-date prices, some updates of those, and some overgeneralisations like "all second hand Ibanez classical guitars are worth the same amount of money (for a long time they said they were all worth 180 euros > which was BS).
Now they say "All Andorra models of the 2800 range are worth 320 euros" > which still is BS.
And " All Andorra models from the GA series without a solid top (around 1988) are worth 280 euros and with a solid top 400 euros, with a few random exceptions that show that they don't know where these models stand in the total line of GA models. My opinion is that they know very little about acoustic guitars and in particular about classical guitars.

So the Argus list is a MIX of correct info and incorrect info.
THAT is the definition of UNRELIABLE.
If we knew that EVERYTHING is incorrect, we could just ignore it. But they're sometimes right.
So that's why we must compare it to other sources.
My opinion is that the list is improving, but there are several parts in it that are fossilized. The updates are always fragmentary and often overgeneralizing.

It is obvious that we need more than just one tool in the toolbox.



Ginger

[jeapson]

gemberbier...I more than PERFECTLY know how much this JS4 went for. Isn't it a certain JEAPSON that got it ? This user name is more than familiar to me  . I indeed bought this one as well a few other all original JS with graphics. Ebay is also not the sole source for the second hand market and some of these sell out of ebay for really high prices. I just pointed out the first JS guitars as they are the most illustrative exemple. I didn't look to the price of guitarelectrique.com as to the 2671 which I'm pretty sure is a pure joke considering how much the best examples of dead mint / capsule time ones went for recently (still out of ebay...
 

[Ibaneezer_Scrooge]

There is no site that I know of that accurately lists the current pricing of guitars and related equipment...amps and signal processors.

There is one for amps and signal processors...that uses statistics...to average out the price.  Much like a moving average.  It is good for a quick reference, but does not give the price that one should list it at on Ebay...

Having said that...if the Ibanez guitar in question is rare and infrequently traded...one can only guess what it will fetch.  If one sold recently, and the price shot over the top...you can probably sell yours for that...assuming the auction was not shilled or rigged...or the buyer got overexuberant, and once over the moment...decided to back out.   Happens all the time.

Appraisals ala Gruhn are worthless also.   You pay him an exorbitant fee...he tells you what its worth...you list it at that price...and gee....no buyers....LOL.

So...you come full circle...and wonder just what your rare Ibanez guitar is worth.

Or for that matter, any rare guitar.

[jazzzbo]

I have seen 2355 bursts, and nice ones go for under $1000.and beaters under a grand, jazzz

[gemberbier]

The purpose of the Argus list is to give estimates for insurance purposes.
At least that's what it says in French:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cet argus est une orientation sur les tendances des quotations maximum utilisées pour des questions d'assurances et autres évaluations de collection.
La vraie valeure de vente ou spéculative dépend de l'état, du moment, de la mode.
Celle-ci reste basée sur l'offre et la demande et peut-être diminuée de 50% par rapport à notre argus maximum qui est calculé à 100%"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if that's the purpose of it, I have no problems with high estimates.
If a piece is stolen, you'll get at least enough to buy another one.
It's the TOO LOW estimates I've problems with.
What if an insurance company decides to pay the owner of a 2408 model (Dragon, Eagle or Sequoia) only EUR 620-800 based on such a list?

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1975/xxxx   2408-1 Artwood Orient   Style Strato,Head &body sculpte dragon(Taiwan)   620    second hand
1975/xxxx   2408-2 Artwood New   Style Strato, (Taiwan)   620   second hand
1975/xxxx   2408-3 Artwood Eagle   Style Strato, (Taiwan)   800   second hand

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that it must be possible to find a 2355 burst under $1000.- but most dealers ask more. The insurance money should be enough to buy the same guitar from a reliable dealer with some warranty. Then $1250.- is a price I have often seen on dealer websites.


Ginger