Artist question....

[aliensporebomb]

Hi Jim.

Are you aware of any Artist guitars post 1980s heyday that were built
with "veneer flametop" construction?

Mainly got into it with someone who was talking trash (a pro-Gibsonite
of course) who indicated that beyond 1982 or thereabouts most of the
Artist guitars especially into the "reissue era" may have been made with
a plain hunk of maple on top of the mahogany underbody and on top a
thin cosmetic flametop ala "photo flame".

I was a bit surprised at this and knew that some manufacturers do this
to keep the costs down but not on some of the greater than $500 guitars.

Was this guy misguided or was there some truth behind his rantings?

I think he was actually just jealous of the tiger-top on my AR300!

[triumph]

Are you aware of any Artist guitars post 1980s heyday that were built
with "veneer flametop" construction?

Many flametop MIJ guitars from this time period were made with figured veneers. it's actually fairly rare to have a figured top MIJ guitar made from a carved hunk of figured wood. The figured veneer is much more common.

Why not just take the pickups out of your guitar and look inside the pickup cavities at the top and seam between the maple and mahogany? Take a few pictures and we can have a look.

There is a possibility that it is a veneer top - the quilty/burl artists were veneers.

Photoflame is different than a veneer, and even lower quality. It's a picture of figured wood placed on top of real wood. I'm not aware of Ibanez using this during the vintage years.

[aliensporebomb]

On mine the insides of the pickup cavities were painted with shielding paint but not completely.

Here's a 7 megapixel jpeg and you can see the seam so it may be half inch thick maple after all
but the top is a prettier veneer - at least it's still maple wood I suppose:

http://pod.ath.cx/guitars/artist/inside/maplecapmeetsmahoganyincavity.jpg

I've seen other artists innards where you can see how thick the wood is but it is interesting to
see this information given the "Catch the Tiger" ads at the time.

[triumph]

It's never easy to tell conclusively from a picture, but I suspect that may be a veneer. I personally wouldn't care too much about that - I think Ibanez did a very nice job on their Artist guitars, veneer or not. If you prefer not to have a veneer, then one of the plain top solid Artist models will do the trick. But I don't think it makes much tonal difference.

[daveh]

It's very hard to tell from the picture whether there is veneer on the top, but I can't see a glue line other than what looks to be much thicker than any veneer would be cut.

Even if there was a veneer, if it was laid up over a solid Maple top, there would be no difference in tone. OTOH, If it was laid over an Alder or other light hardwood top, I think you would be able to tell a difference in tone, compared to a solid Maple cap.

[triumph]

It's very hard to tell from the picture whether there is veneer on the top, but I can't see a glue line other than what looks to be much thicker than any veneer would be cut.

Even if there was a veneer, if it was laid up over a solid Maple top, there would be no difference in tone. OTOH, If it was laid over an Alder or other light hardwood top, I think you would be able to tell a difference in tone, compared to a solid Maple cap.

It does seem like a thicker than normal veneer, if there is one, I agree with that. And yes, it probably doesn't matter much to the tone if there is a veneer when it is done properly. I would just like to establish the real specs and features of these old guitars without some of the hype I now see on ebay.

[snowjays]

I don't recall any of the 80's Artists having a veneer top.  These were all maple cap over mahogony body.  I think that the over-run of poly coating sometimes gives the illusion of a veneer top in a photo.

Alien, you could go back to your pro-gibsonite to ask the age old arguement..... why do Gibbys have to paint their guitars.....maybe it has to do with what's underneath?

[porkpie]

I have an '82 AR300 and it definitely has a thin flame maple veneer over the maple cap. As mentioned it really doesn't matter if it is done well either in appearance or tone quality.

[triumph]

I don't recall any of the 80's Artists having a veneer top.  These were all maple cap over mahogony body.  I think that the over-run of poly coating sometimes gives the illusion of a veneer top in a photo.

I believe that Ibanez did make veneer-topped Artists. Many of the figured-top guitars had a figured veneer. I am going from memory here but I think the model numbers would be AR105, AR305, and AM205 for the burl top models which were veneered. There are others.

[seattledan]

    Does anybody know of one listed in any catalogs as, or proven to be,  a solid figured top?

[aliensporebomb]

I was wondering too if the new handmade models such as the AR5000 and AR300 (Fujigen Team J Craft)
were producing real half inch thick tops - for the price I would suspect they are......

Some say "it's a veneer".  Others say "it's the stain sinking into the maple".

There's definetely a half inch thick layer of wood on top of another wood below.  The most likely
explanation is "flame maple veneer adhered to the stop of a half inch thick plain maple cap and
below the mahogany underbody".  BUT...

This guitar was constructed with lots of conductive shielding paint in the pickup cavities so the
side where that gap is seen is only on one side of the treble pickup.  The neck is painted on
most of the sides too.

Other pics (multiple 7mp jpegs):
http://pod.ath.cx/guitars/artist/inside/

Look for yourself.  I'd hate to SAND the paint off the edges for fear of damaging the top....

Ultimately, IMHO, if it's a veneer on top of plain maple on top of mahogany it is still maple.
Still wood.  Still sounds good and looks nice.

But the advertising was so "Catch the Tiger", discussing using figured woods as if it was the real deal.

Given that the Artist was supposed to be the "low budget alternative to the other maple/mahogany
guitar" I could see them perhaps doing the veneers in certain models...

Anyway, interesting ethical and construction discussion: it's a valid way to make an instrument for
less cost.   

But it would be sad to see an AR3000/5000 with a thin veneer when it's multiple thousands of dollars.

Catch my drift?

But on the $700-800-900 and up models you would think it would be real

[jason43]

I'd be willing to bet my @!## that all of the MIK Artist are mahogany/maple/maple veneer. Regardless, it won't make any difference in tone. Its still a maple cap and I don't see how it makes it any less of a guitar. I'd also ask your Gibson friend why his $2000 guitar doesn't sound or play any better that your $500 Artist.

[porkpie]

Here are a couple pictures of my '79 and '80 ST50s clearly showing veneer tops. Hard to see with the dark sunburst. Is there anything Ibanez didn't put veneer on:)

[dave_g]

I don't know what this Ibanez bashing session is really about, but it has degererated into a comparison of one of the low end models to the top-of-the-line.......interesting. but stupid....


I have been challenged several times over the past several years by Gibson snobs on this exact same issue-kinda silly cause its not the flame that gives the sustain, its the 1/2" -5/8" carved Rock Maple cap that is the key to the elusive "tone", regardless I really dont think any of the Artists had veneers...

Over the past 15 years or so I have had several Artists pass thru my hands-both 70's & 80's almost all models...

Never did see a veneer on an Ibanez........

 

[porkpie]

No bashing on my part. Just trying to be informative and honest. I'm very impressed by the quality of woodwork and finish in Ibanez guitars.