How do you folks learn songs?

[Roland_G303]

I learned how to play saxophone first in Middle/High School and I think it shows somewhat in my guitar playing (maybe that's why I love the GR-300 so much ).  I'm fortunate that my father and brothers play guitar/keys/etc.. and that music runs in my family. When it comes to learning songs I've taken the approach of listening and just picking it up.  I'd say I've been blessed with good ears and good timing that have helped me immensely in learning and playing with others.  I honestly don't know a lot about musical theory (other than notes and certain scales), and I'd say I'm a feel player. 

I agree with you Bob on how you never stop learning.  When I started guitar I was (and still am) a huge Pearl Jam fan and I looked up to Mike McCready for a lot of my guitar playing.  Then I became really interested in Jazz and learned a heck of a lot more about improv and crazy chords that make your fingers go every which way.  Anyways, I think I'll always be learning and I still have a long way to go.

I'll have to create a myspace page to share some of my music...I've been recording a ton on the road.

Patrick

[BCy2k]

I wasn't exactly talking about how to learn a song by ear so much as I was going off on how to train your ear to hear things better by starting with simple stuff and gradually progressing to more deeper levels of hearing over time. But now that you mention it, if you can nail the melody and the bass notes, it does make it a lot easier to fill in the blanks from there. I'd never really thought of it that way either - LOL.

When I do transcriptions (I literally do at least a dozen per month) I hardly ever have to think about much anymore if it's basic pop or rock. Some stuff I do have to think about though. The other day one of my more motivated students brought in a hilarious punk rock arrangement of, "I Believe I Can Fly" which was covered by a semi-obscure band called "Me First and the Gimme Gimmes"  

I'd done the straight, schmaltzy version of this tune loads of times doing casuals. But this punk version had me in stitches ROFLMAO. Anyway, this tune starts on C and then you could either play a Dm7b5 or a Fm6 - which are spelled the same way note-wise. The only way to decide which is really right is to see if the D or the F is in the bass (IMHO) - and even then both chords will work. The point being, if I can hear it I can transcribe it - but I do have to stop and think about the context of what I'm hearing sometimes. And even then there are still things that are subjective - open to interpretation.

As far as none of us really writing original songs goes - eh, yes and no. Sure we all use the same twelve tones - and to some extent we either consciously or subconsciously draw from things we've heard or played before. But I really believe there's a helluva lot of music out there that's yet to be discovered or written. Stuff that's unlike anything anyone has ever heard. There's plenty of math to support my position on this.

The problem with originality in music is it's too risky for the music industry (and radio) to embrace. Things could get better sooner than we think, but there are a lot of forces trying to maintain the status quo. You don't want to get me started on that can-o-worms.  

[macwhisper]

BCy2k

I agree and disagree. In theory I suppose total originality exists. However I also believe that the whole point of art is to reflect back to people some statement about their own existance. In that context a song needs to relate to those who hear it. I'm not saying it has to be popular to be art. I'm just saying that if it is so original that only its creator understands it then it becomes self indulgent.

After all their are no musical genres that spontaneously erupted. They all evolved thru decades upon decades of previous styles interacting. Bluegrass evolved from the music imigrants brought from Europe. Blues grew from Gospel. Country and Blues interacted to become Rockabilly and eventually Rock and Roll. Each owes its existance to the public domain of the styles that came before it. Even Mozart  didn't get up one morning and say, "I think I'll write some Zydeco today". Like us his music reflected the influences of his time.

[macwhisper]

BTy2k

I just have to add one more thing to mitigate what I said above. I think our difference lyes in that you are obviously a person educated in music. On the other hand I am a history major who happens to be a musician.

[Mongo]

I must have missed this discussion.
A pretty good one for looking from a players perspective.

A wise man said long ago "There's nothing new under the sun". Motzart to Motorhead, 12 notes (plus some great ones in between). It's the inspiration of our experiences that causes us to arrange them in a way that speaks to a generation.

I have been playing music of some form or fashion since the 4th grade when I sat in front of a piano and learned chop sticks.I've learned and relearned to read staff several times in multiple clef's playing Cello in an orchestra for several years, Alto Sax for a while after that and eventually finding the guitar in the late 70's. I did play bass in a band for about 3 years (Rush covers, etc...). A great hand strength workout for sure.

Enough history...
I've forgotten more than I can remember and have pretty much decided that I'm a feel player at heart. My memory, as much as it pains me, is pretty bad. Even after playing a song 50 times (literally), I can forget it like I've never even heard it, 2 seconds before the drummer clicks it off. It's an odd thing, but it has had a profound effect on my playing. When I was playing off rigid charts it was undetectable, but in a band situation where things flow spontaneously it's a whole nother story.

I've learned coping techniques to get my bearings on the fly and pull a rabbit out of a hat when I find myself heading down a scale that walks me right out of the key. I made a decision years ago that I was not going to fight this situation anymore, but embrace it. It revolutionized my playing allowing me to laugh at, my mistakes (no matter how bad the train wreck sounded) and start fresh on the next measure.

As far as learning songs, the side effect of this is that I re learn the same songs over and over and over again. It's indescribably frustrating to KNOW you have nailed this song several times before, but have to start all over again. Case in point, Carry on my wayward son. My love for this song keeps bringing me back to it. I bet I phrase it differently each time... Well, this condition has developed a discipline in hearing and picking out melodies and chords. Sure, I'll write out a chord chart or TAB a specific part or melodic passage. But that is just to save me the time when I need to remember it when someone calls out that song and I'm giving them the 'deer in the headlights' look.

I've got a rehearsal tonight. I didn't get a specific list so I had to go back through the bulk of our music to refresh my fingers. So last night I burned through 70 songs, had to work on about 25 of them. I didn't get enough sleep, but at least I'll be able to carry my weight when the drummer counts them off.

[macwhisper]

I'm not sure that phrasing things differently each time would bother me all that much.
Are you saying that you can't recreate things the same or that you are continuing to experiment as you go. If it's the latter then good for you. Charley parker did alot of that and never looked back.

[Mongo]

I'm not sure that phrasing things differently each time would bother me all that much.
Are you saying that you can't recreate things the same or that you are continuing to experiment as you go. If it's the latter then good for you. Charley parker did alot of that and never looked back.

I can usually reproduce things because I've forced myself over the years to memorize things verbatim to a recording. It gives me a great starting point for improvisation. Basically, if I remember a song when we start it, I have it all just as I learned it. If I draw a blank, it's like it literally never existed. In those moments, I'm listening to the band, finding the key/tempo/groove and throwing something appropriate out there. Often, no one knows that I 'wing'd it', but I know. Ironically, those times often return the greatest feedback from people. I've given up telling folks what actually transpired. They think I'm being humble or something, telling them I had no clue what I was doing, when I was actually scrambling, groping and laughing really hard. It's because of those times that I gave myself the freedom to let go. The only problem is when I'm opening the song with a specific part.

Two weeks ago we played a great song with a 3/4 waltz groove, but the guitar actually played a type of 'jangly' 4/4 picked chord progression. The overlay of the two grooves laid a great foundation for the vocal as one met up periodically. My wife actually was singing that song. Well, I played it repeatedly the night before with great results. Rehearsal before went great too. We decided to run through it one last time and I lost it completely. Gone! Not a clue... I looked at the keyboard player after stomping over the progressions several times and let him take it. Once he opened the song about 2 measures into it I remembered it and backed him up softly. I gave my wife my apologies...

It doesn't bother me a bit to phrase stuff differently. I was more making reference that each time I re learn a song, I'm likely applying the current stylistic approach I may have at the time and it will lead me to place chords and passages in places I may not have used before. My ear drives me almost exclusively and that's where I'm happy now. I have no concern what I've done before, since tomorrow I really won't be able to tell you what it was. I've seriously considered setting up a camcorder to capture my 'done' version of a new song.

The other players I'm with have more influence on my playing than any chart I'm following. I use charts to form the boundaries and flow with the movement of the band as we chart a course through the songs. Playing at church, we don't often vary too much outside the lines, but when we do, it's heaven on earth.

[ChuckE99]

The guys in the band I'm playing with now were just amazed I could play along to their originals with no practice at all. But they are all very basic songs. Once you here the verse and chorus played once, watch the other guitar players hands, and figure out the key, the rest falls into place pretty easily. I can learn any song (except very intricate ones) like that, pretty much by the end of the first time its played, in terms of chords, keys, and pattern of verses/choruses/breaks, etc. Then it's just practice to get it right and get the "hook" parts down so people can latch onto specific parts. For solos, I'm the same way with the "hooks". For example, while I don't play Stairway to Heaven, if I were to play the solo, I'd probably learn the first four bars close to the actual notes, then wing the rest until the final "woodlies" at the end.

[the hurricane]

Okay, so i am to understand you guys all learn stuff just as i do. Listen to it, try to match chord/note, rythym, etc. Refer to tab if necessary. What I have been doing for years. I do a breakdown, which is what I call taking a song apart and learning each seperate part then putting it back together. I play by ear (obviously) and any other way I can learn. If some guy is playing local and playing something I want to learn, I will go right to the front of the stage and make a mental note of where he is on the neck. Sometimes I even remember this long enough to get it home and write it down. What I am trying to find out is , Have any of you tried the 'Guitar God" or 'Killer Control" or "Perfect Pitch" or any such program? Do they work? I have been playing for 25 years and I am always looking for something to make me better quicker. I was a drummer in the school band, marching and concert. Picked the guitar up at about 16. I was just wondering about the program thing. I realize different things work for different people, but if you recommend one tell us what you liked about it. I have never ordered one, but I have ordered a couple of instructional videos I learn a good bit from. So if you have gone this route, let us know!

[BCy2k]

Hurricane - these programs you mention, like Perfect Pitch, 'Killer Control' and 'Guitar God' - can't say I've ever tried them personally. TBH they all sound like BS designed to empty your wallet if you know what I mean. If it has a name like "Guitar God" - be afraid. This crap is made for kids who are tired of their Guitar Hero II and think they can actually play because of their game score.

If you've been playing for 25 years try contacting the local college or university (if there is one) and ask for their music department and seek out their guitar instructor(s). See if they take students privately and ask to meet with them first (for free) and tell them what you want to learn and see if they are willing to work with you from there. If that's not available seek out a private guitar instructor - but know that they're not all created equally. And just because they can play doesn't always mean they're going to be a good teacher. And visa versa.

If you know players you respect who have had lessons, they can usually point you towards a good teacher. Another good place to inquire will be high school band directors or local music stores that offer lessons.

[chazmo]

I've taken on a couple of challenging tunes lately, and I'm grateful for the tablature that I've found on the web (inaccurate as it may be) and the web boards themselves for folks being able to explain the necessary alternate tunings, etc...  Without those things, good ears and all, I don't think I'd be able to put these songs together.

Rock on!  (great discussions, by the way)

[the hurricane]

Thanks BCy2k and Chazmo ! What you said about these programs being just for emptying the wallet is pretty much what I thought already. i I have taken professional instruction from time to time. My current endeavours are Stevie ray Vaughn's "Rude Mood" , and "Little Wing" , Jimi Hendrix studio version. i did not really figure there was any magical way to make a leap, but as with everything, i can always be wrong. Thanks for the advice. i shall keep schlepping along!

[BCy2k]

Chazmo - alternate tunings can be quite a pain.

I had a young teenaged student show up for lessons with a prototype guitar that had this tuning system in it. I'd never seen anything like it. Come to find out this kid's dad was the co-inventor of the whole thing and that they'd sold more than one to Jimmy Page and others. It's very cool for dealing with alternate/dropped tunings and all that thrashy chain saw rock some of the kids are into.

This system adds loads of weight to the guitar but it works incredibly well. His was installed on a LP custom and I swear it weighed as much or more than my double neck. The control pad for his was mounted on the top side of his LP too.

One thing I've noticed when it comes to learning tunes: If I learn it by ear I memorize it with much more ease than if I learn it from some form of chart, be it standard notation or otherwise. For me it seems like I know it much better and fully absorb it if it's all done by ear. Any one else run into this?

[Roland_G303]

One thing I've noticed when it comes to learning tunes: If I learn it by ear I memorize it with much more ease than if I learn it from some form of chart, be it standard notation or otherwise. For me it seems like I know it much better and fully absorb it if it's all done by ear. Any one else run into this?

I'd have to agree on that.  I usually never use tab when I learn a song or any other form for that matter.  I find that I can get a better feel for a song when I just listen and start to put the pieces together in my head.  It works a lot better when I do it that way.  The only time I've really ever used tab was to find out what tuning the song was in...an example was when I wanted to learn 'Rain Song'.  That's in a pretty funky tuning.

Patrick

[wakuhn1]

Hey folks, thought I would join in a little on this discussion, this is the first that I have read it! Lots of great points mentioned by everyone.

Keep in mind, that a lot of the greatest players have never read a note of music. I am actually a band teacher at a Middle School here, so I also see the value of reading as well. My view is that there be a compliment of several different ways... Of course, I teach kids how to read music, that's a big part of what I do. But I never forget there is also the aspect of gettiing away from reading the "notes." You should see the way kids can flip out because they don't have music infront of them when we do a little improv, from the flute, clarinet, down to the tuba! We can't forget about our creative side. Some kids really get into it, some are just so afraid... I'm one that thinks there should be a good balance of things.

Tab also has it's uses... While I agree that a lot of what we see isn't the greatest in transcription, it aids in learning maybe different positions, or fingerings we may not be used to. Back in the 80's when I took up guitar, I used a magazine that published songs in tab, and I learned tunes FAST! I had a good ear for rhythm I guess, so that really helped.

Perfect pitch dvd's etc... I have heard of these, and don't really have an opinion as I have never tried them. I heard one makes you see "colors" for certain pitches, or something. Actually, my old band teacher used that one, and he said it worked to a point. I think when you play for any longer legnth of time, you just know what you are hearing. Kids are suprised when I can tell them what notes they are playing with their backs turned. Well, I am around music all day, and don't consider myself to have perfect pitch.

I guess in a nutshell, we should all use as many methods as we can! Someone said it before here (sorry, can't remember who right now), but we never stop learning! As long as we keep playing, we will always find different methods of learning things! Isn't that what it is all about anyway? Just think how boring music would be if we already knew it all! Ah, that's my 2 cents 
Bill