Tone Zone - or: Everything counts in small amounts

[toms_korber]

So far, I've had several discussions on this board (and read quite a few more ) on how the construction of our 2nd favourite toys affect their sound, like: set neck vs. bolt on, ceramic vs. Alnico pickups, single piece bodies vs. block construction. There are a lot of myths and theories about on this topic - and sometimes even urban legends    - but maybe some of you guys would like to chime in here!
Let's try and keep it
a) as scientific as possible
b) avoid judgements ( i.e. the question is not: does xy make the guitar sound better, but just: does xy affect the sound or not?)
c) for the sake of the argument, limit the discussion to just guitars and leave the other stuff (cables, FX, amps etc.) for some other thread.

(Just for clarification: when I say "sound", that does of course include "responsiveness", i.e.: how does a guitar react to how I hit the strings and where etc.)

I think I'll start with this little story:
The first "good" electric (after 2 plywood Arias) I bought was a MIJ Fender Strat. During the years I'd replaced the pickups with Duncans and the bridge with a Wilkinson VSV, but I still felt she didn't really sound like she should. Earlier this year she needed a fret dress. Instead of taking the whole axe to my luthier, I just detached the neck. When doing so, I discovered a little cardboard shim under the two outer screws. Obviously they had gotten the neck pocket slightly wrong at the factory (Fuji Gen?), so they had put that shim in there in order to be able to get a decent action. Since the Wilkinson has a wider range for adjustment, I removed that little piece of cardboard and thoroughly cleaned the neck pocket. After I'd put the neck back on, I noticed that there was a dramatic improvement in sound! I could even feel how the neck and the body resonated better than before! After that, anyone who tells me that the construction of a electric guitar does not significantly affect its sound has a really hard time trying to convince me!

Besides, if it was true, electric guitars might just as well be made from plastic. Or you could put some Super58s and an EQ into any cheap Chinese AR (dunno if there is such thing), send her to Vietnam for some fancy inlays and end up with an AR5000RE...

[dave_g]

Yea Tom, bait the hook

[BCy2k]

Tom - please tell us about the myths and urban legends you mentioned. What are some of the things you were referencing in particular? I'm curious because I didn't know there were any. Maybe I do know some and just don't realize it. But please elaborate for the sake of discussion. In fact - I throw this out not just Tom - but to anyone who would care to shed some light.

Also - while I'm at it. Has anyone done any detailed listening and A/B comparison of the Ibanez half brass/bone nut to other types of material? I really am curious if anyone has any feelings on this one way or the other. Brass vs bone vs half-n-half vs tusq vs teflon etc. I'm going to try some more things on my end and report back, but I'm still undecided on a lot of things in this realm. Particularly as it pertains to tonal character and sustain. I ask because I think the nut is an important, fundamental  tonal element and is easily overlooked.

[toms_korber]

OK

I've already made my point (well, one of them..  ) in that other thread that gave me the idea for this one:

http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/forum/vintage-and-custom-electrics-and401970s-onlyand41/mid-70s-blonde-solid-body/msg92333/#msg92333

Here's a few more:
type of wood - eg mohagony vs. ash or even BIRCH (lower PF models) in a Les Paul  type guitar
qualitity of wood - old (i.e. propery dried) vs. "fresh from the woods"
bridge type/material - Gibraltar I vs Gibraltar II vs Gibraltar III vs Tune-A-Matic or - heaven forbid  - Floyd etc.
finish - thick poly vs. nitro vs. wax etc.
wiring, pots, caps etc.

a) question: will these things affect the sound of your guitar in some way? I do think so!
b) question: will some drunk kid in a club with a lousy PA where you play thru a fridge-size rack of FX with a band including another guitarrist and a keyboard player be able to tell the difference? Certainly not!
c) question: does a) mean that x sounds better than y? Just a matter of taste - I prefer brunettes and scotch, if you like blondes and Jim Beam that's fine with me...

As for urban legends - if someone will ever try & tell me again that you can get a PAF-type sound from a pickup with ceramic magnets, my answer will still be NO and one day I'll write an elaborate paper on why, what and how....

As for nuts - they'll certainly affect the sound of an open string -apart from that, I guess you shouldn't drive yourself nuts about it... 

[KD]

There are those that would say the lighter, aluminum Gotoh bridge materials give a better sound transfer than the heavy materials like the Gibraltar. Don't forget about the finger board materials, various rosewoods, ebony, maple, etc.

[BCy2k]

a) question: will these things affect the sound of your guitar in some way? I do think so!
b) question: will some drunk kid in a club with a lousy PA where you play thru a fridge-size rack of FX with a band including another guitarrist and a keyboard player be able to tell the difference? Certainly not!
c) question: does a) mean that x sounds better than y? Just a matter of taste

The only place where this minutia matters is in the studio. It's practically irrelevant live - it really is. Particularly in clubs, or any venue not made specifically for listening to music. The only person who is likely to hear a good sound out of the guitar in these circumstances is the guy playing it - standing in front of his amp or monitor.

Strictly speaking sonically, when you're talking about getting good guitar sounds in the studio there is this arbitrary threshold where a guitar is "good enough" to work with. Meaning it doesn't matter so much if it's made of this or that, doesn't matter what strings you use etc. All that matters is the guitar doesn't buzz, doesn't have dead spots, has good intonation, and plays good enough to make your sticker peck out. I'm talking about fundamental attributes that put a guitar at or above this arbitrary threshold. Basic stuff that makes it worthy of playing, and worthy of recording. From there - the player is THE most important thing.

To me the guitar and whatever it's components are made of is such a small part of the bigger picture. There's so much more to it than that IMHO.

Skill and creativity will always have way more to do with good guitar sounds and good music than the science of guitar construction IMHO.

[KD]

Well put BC. I guess it's like a placebo, if you think the materials make a difference, then they do. How many of us have an O-Scope in our effects chain?

[BCy2k]

Right.

It's all about flavor - ear candy. It's totally arbitrary. I wish I could talk about this scientifically and without any judgement, but I don't think it's really possible.

[toms_korber]

To me the guitar and whatever it's components are made of is such a small part of the bigger picture.

Agreed, but in THIS thread I would like to talk about exactly that small part. You may stick to astronomy - I'd like to do a little nuclear science here for now...

As for he importance of the player, how you play and what  - here's a good example:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/bxPBvDYVX2w&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/bxPBvDYVX2w&rel=1</a>

If you haven't heard of Ed Bickert before, maybe you'd want to minimize the window, listen to the tune and then take a look at WHAT guitar he's playing - maybe you'll be in for some surprise... 

[BCy2k]

 listen to the tune and then take a look at WHAT guitar he's playing - maybe you'll be in for some surprise... 

Great stuff. Actually - I'm really not surprised in the slightest.    The Tele is one of the most versatile guitars ever made. I have one.

Agreed, but in THIS thread I would like to talk about exactly that small part. You may stick to astronomy - I'd like to do a little nuclear science here for now...

Are you sure? You totally dismissed my question about the composition of a guitars' nut like it didn't matter - I disagree on scientific grounds. Anything that comes in contact with the guitar string matters, and effects tone and sustain.

Astronomy? huh? What did I say?

[toms_korber]

I've got one, too:
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/forum/the-player's-lounge/your-fave-non-ibanez-guitar/msg85363/#msg85363

A friend of mine compared her with several of his 50s and 60s Fender Tele's and said he would play mine on stage any day! I wonder what those guys at DUESENBERG know, that some other Tele-clone producers don't...

Astronomy?

That was supposed to be a metaphor...

I must admit I'm slightly confused about what your point actually is, as you seem to contradict yourself in every reply you write. So I assume you're either a multiple personality OR someone hijacked you ICW-identity OR this is supposed to be some sort of practical joke. If you don't like this discussion, just ignore it - it's not like it was popping up on your computer desktop every 30 seconds... 

[porkpie]

[/quote]

Are you sure? You totally dismissed my question about the composition of a guitars' nut like it didn't matter - I disagree on scientific grounds. Anything that comes in contact with the guitar string matters, and effects tone and sustain.
[/quote]

After you fret a string the nut is taken out of the equation. You would think if you want a balanced sound, open string versus fretted, the nut should be made out tf the same material as the frets, like guitars that have a zero fret. I think the nut material and more importantly how its setup is more important when t ccomes to tuning stability and playability. No binding, correct string height, etc. Nut material maybe one of those "urban legends"

[KD]

While we're on Tele's. This guy, Jim Campilongo, can make a Tele sound any way you want. Several albums, a lot of instrumental stuff. Also plays with Nora Jones. A lot of his stuff on YouTube. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Bvua4unz-JI&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Bvua4unz-JI&rel=1</a>.

[toms_korber]

Porkpie:

I think he was only kidding (see my last post) 

KD:
"Video no longer available" 

[BCy2k]

Not kidding at all. I have a 2671 and a 2617. The 2617 has the stock half & half nut, the other has a solid brass nut. The guitar with the solid brass nut sounds much brighter and more lively that the one with the half and half. This is playing them unplugged. This is also quite noticeable without regard to wether I'm playing fretted notes or open string stuff. They are identical in virtually every other aspect in terms of woods, bridges etc. They sound very different. I'm not imagining it - I spend about 50+ hours a week in the studio. I'm not hearing an urban legend here gentlemen.

So Tom, Pork? Whadaya think?