Tone Zone - or: Everything counts in small amounts

[porkpie]

A true scientific test would be swapping the nuts and see if the tone difference follows. Aside from that I don't know what to tell you. There may be some difference because of the total mass at the headstock end but I wouldn't think it would make that much of a difference in something as small as a nut. i have three mc300s with the same half/half nut and they all sound different acoustically so there are other factors.

[dave_g]

Solid brass nut will always be "brighter"  thats why guitar owners changed them out by the thousands in the late 70's early 80's-remember the mania for solid brass bridges ? I have encountered many vintage artists with vintage aftermarket brass bridges.

Anyway BCY2k and KD seem to be on the right track here. Tom wants to argrue the scientific merits of each component of the guitars sound and is willing to got into a lab to test and measure.....

The overwhelming sentiment seems to be-who friggin cares-as long as -to the ear-these guitars sound awesome-either alone or in direct comparison to the overprice domestic offerings of the era.

Sure you can tweak some measurement differences on an occilliscope when comparing a brass nut to a plastic nut....Sure a solid ash guitar will measure a different sonic profile than a plywood guitar...but most of us use the venue as our lab and -quite simply-you cannot hear those subtle differences in a live gig ....

So I guess if your going to play your guitar in an  controlled laboratory situation Tom, you will certainally notice the subtle difference between an ebony board and a rosewood board to the tone of the guitar,,,,,

But thats impractical and silly..

Just plug er in in a live concert situation, tweak the tone & volume knob until you hit the sweet spot and play the dam thing-a lab is no place for a guitar

[toms_korber]

BCy2k:

I don't think it's the nut either. No two wooden guitars will ever be totally identical, unless you cloned a tree and took the same parts of each to build the two.
My best guess would be the difference in body shape (1 vs. 2 cutaways) and thus the different size of the area where the neck is attached to the body. There must be a reason why PRS started making the Singlecut models or why Gibson made the Les Paul DC - which pretty much bombed because it didn't sound like a Les Paul...

dave_g:
I put "scientific" in " " because I wanted to eliminate the "mojo" or "voodoo" element that some people talk about when discussing "tone". I certainly ain't talking about a lab situation here, but something like sitting at home or in a shop and trying out a new guitar. I agree 100% about the live situation (see "b) question" in my 2nd posting in this thread) and alos about "overpriced domestic offerings".
I just wanted to try and seperate fact from fiction in this new thread here...

[porkpie]

This is starting to sound like when Austin Powers lost his "mojo". If you think some factor, design or thing makes you "sound better, play faster and sustain longer" then it does. Viagra for guitar players.

[Mongo]

This thread started with what looks like the best of intension's, but, it is next to impossible to isolate the specific tonal influences of each component. The uniqueness of each piece of wood (grain, density, etc) will vary guitars even within the same model. Granted, Ash will sound different than Mahogany...

I agree that every component does contribute to the character of a guitar, and will be more noticeable in a studio and overwhelmed in a live environment. But....

I know that when a guitar combines the right components, a certain quality emerges. This tonal quality (for me) changes the way I play. When I know the point where my guitar transitions into harmonic overtones, I can ride that edge to the benefit of the music. This is definitely noticeable in a live environment.

[BCy2k]

I agree that every component does contribute to the character of a guitar, and will be more noticeable in a studio and overwhelmed in a live environment.

I totally agree and I'd even go another step further - in the studio these minute tonal details can also get totally swallowed up in a mix. Depending on the nature of the musical piece and how things sit in the mix itself.

I know that when a guitar combines the right components, a certain quality emerges. This tonal quality (for me) changes the way I play. When I know the point where my guitar transitions into harmonic overtones, I can ride that edge to the benefit of the music. This is definitely noticeable in a live environment.

I agree but still, the player matters more than the guitar here. Until the player brings these tones out of the instrument by playing with a certain touch, the potential qualities of the guitar can be there, and lay dormant because of a player's technique or lack thereof. I've seen this happen loads of times when players sit in and jam with a band for a song or two. Same instrument played by player A sounds night and day different when played by player B.

[dave_g]

At the end of the day , the most important element of an individual guitars tone is the player.  I sucky player will play just as sucky on an ridiculously overpriced log than on a cheap plywood guitar.  The converse is also true......SRV would have still sounded awesome on a guitar with a laminate (plywood) top.....

[Mongo]

I most definitely agree that true tone comes first from the player. SRV or EJ could walk up to pretty much any rig, twiddle the settings for a bit and sound very much like themselves on their own gear. Hand the guitar to another player and even if he plays the same song, it won't sound the same.

Great gear only allows a great player to extract great tone.

[BCy2k]

I must admit I'm slightly confused about what your point actually is, as you seem to contradict yourself in every reply you write.

I'm complicated Tom. Do you really want to call me out on this, or should I let it slide? 

[dave_g]

Oh for the love of god and all things sacred, let it go !

[BCy2k]

 

Only if you stop harassing Triumph. All of you.

[toms_korber]

There's only one member of this forum that's been harrassed by me, but that was someone else - so far, I've succeeded in keeping him from showing up in this thread...

Back on topic...
(if some of you guys feel like this is getting REALLY boring, maybe you'd want to treat yourself to a real strong cup of coffee, since I'd really hate to see someone fell asleep in front of their computer and hurt their head on the keyboard...  )

Of course, the player IS the most important factor when it comes to "tone" - next up are probably amp and strings, but this thread was supposed to be about those little things in the constrution of a guitar that matter as well - even if they might be totally lost on the audience (if there is one...)

So, for instance  - how come that little piece of cardboard affected the sound of my Strat so dramatically, and did I really improve the dynamic response of my Musician by replacing the (ceramic) Supper 88s by (alnico) Duncans OR am I just "hearing the grass growing" or "the fleas coughing" as they say over here?!?

Toms
(suffering from a terrible hangover and lack of sleep today)

PS
question: can a good guitar make a good player even better? I do think so!

[dave_g]

Oh for the love of god and all things sacred, let it go !

[dave_g]

Oh for the love of god and all things sacred, let it go !

PLEEZE its getting deep in here

[Juha T]

Did somebody say "scientific"?

Start here for basics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_acoustics

and also follow the links, especially

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_string

 

Juha