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Exudusdragon
Username: Exudusdragon

Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 3:55 pm:   

Hi, I just had a good friend of mine drop this at my pad to get photos done to send to eBay. Don't know much about it except for what I have read here in the post. 1974 Custom Series No. 2408-1 Artwood Orient (Dragon) SC-Sound Pick-ups, Maple Fingerboard & Walnut Finish. Any clue on the value of this beauty? I will post pictures tomorrow for you all to see.
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 5:24 am:   

Hi Exudusdragon

I have sent you a mail!
URGENT. Please DO react!!!
Iīd like to negotiate about this guitar.

Kind greetz,
Harry
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 6:56 pm:   

ED...post pics first...then call Harry ;
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 5:10 am:   

They're really difficult to find. Dave_G has been looking out for them for ages and was lucky to buy his Aria PE-160, but never found an Ibanez Dragon and he's the sultan among us (the one wih [probably] the largest hareem on the bard).
It would be very wise to have estimated first, by several experts, because it is RARE.

Don't close any deal before you have several estimates by members who are not involved as a buying party.

The Argus list says 620 euros for The Dragon and The Botanical model and 800 for The Eagle.
But that's nonsense, if you ask me. They are about the same price of course.
And what you should ask youself is: what was the last time the guys at Argus saw a 2408 model?
Before I looked it up, the price I had in my mind was: perhaps 900 EUROS.
But that's based on the knowledge that Dave_G didn't manage to find one in all those years.

The last time I had a dragon in my hands, it was an Aria for 650 guilders, but that was about 13 years ago. Second hand GIBSON THE PAUL guitars were also 650 guilders then... and they go for 800-900 euros at the Vintage Guitar Event in Veenendaal.

http://www.guitareelectrique.com/argus_iba.html

If I had one, I wouldn't sell AT ALL.


Ginger
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 5:45 am:   

...and thank you Ginger!!!

Two days ago I already got a private mail from Exudusdragon about this guitar and we made serious contact about getting a deal.
I was pretty much on my way (off line) in trying to get a deal on this guitar and I offered (referring to the price mentioned in the Argus list of 620 Euros) 850 US dollars. I even sent the guy a link to the Argus list in order to prove I was making a serious and fair offer.

Now that Exudusdragon has taken notice of your input (you calling the 620 euro price nonsense), I think I can shake it or pay a lot more in order to get that dragon....

Is this once again one of your "that price wouldnīt do the guitar justice"-actions like you did some time ago with that blonde 2355M?

You could have guessed by my input that I was on top of this! Before you did let loose your opinion about the value of this guitar you could have contacted me off-line first about how far the negotiation was.

Some nice colleague you are, driving up the prices that way!!

Harry
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Pitviper
Username: Pitviper

Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 2:47 pm:   

I think $850 is MORE than a fair price for that guitar.

Frankly speaking, I am semi-shocked by your post Ginger..what are your motives for sabotaging Harry in such a way as this?
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 3:46 pm:   

Yeah...I think he just likes to see if the other foot fits in there as well...
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   

"Don't know much about it except for what I have read here in the post. 1974 Custom Series No. 2408-1 Artwood Orient (Dragon) SC-Sound Pick-ups, Maple Fingerboard & Walnut Finish. Any clue on the value of this beauty?"

That's what Exudusdragon asked...


He wasn't offering anything...

By the way... what would you do if someone offers you 620 euros for the Botanical, not having asked for an offer but after you asked for just some information about the value?
Would you let it go?

Talking about The Dragon - a guitar Carl Perkins endorsed - would YOU let it go for 620, 800, 900 or 1100 euros, if you had that guitar?

You think you have a right to own every rare Ibanez guitar you see, even one that isn't for sale?
Like you think nobody on ICW should bid on a guitar you're bidding on. I think that sucks. I outbid you on the 2355m because I sincerely wanted to buy a second minty 2355m but this time with an open book headstock, then test them, keep the best and sell the other. At that moment the Lawsuit was available for less than I paid for my 1976 tulip headstock. I had a certain limit in my mind, but when Tristan stepped in with 900 euros and then 1000 and 1100, I had to let it go also. And even Tris (Elaforge) was outbid with 10 euros at €1110.-
I explained you before, that that was the second time I bid on an item on eBay, and I only bid when I want to win (within MY limits, because I have a family to support). And I DON'T step aside... for noone.

Do you really think the whole world is just about you and your collection?

GET REAL!

We all have the same rights to acquire collectibles. And the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that eBay did the right thing making bidders anonymous. Then I don't have to read these whining comments because a fellow member dared to bid on something you wanted too.

If I can help a member, I'll help him or her, but when I want something, I go for it...


Back to my opinion about the PRICE DIFFERENCES between the 2408-1, 2408-2 and 2408-3:
I didn't just say 620 euros is nonsense, I said it's nonsense that THE EAGLE would be worth more than THE DRAGON. So, if THE EAGLE is worth 800 euros, THE DRAGON is worth the same.
But, if however the real value of THE DRAGON would be 620 euros, than THE EAGLE is also worth only 620 euros.

But what I think, is that both animal carvings are worth a bit more than the Sequoia cones carvings, because if you make a mistake carving an animal (an eye or something) you can't hide it. A mistake on the botanical carving is easier to hide. A animal carving has to be PERFECT.

So if THE DRAGON is worth 620, then the EAGLE should be 620 and the Botanical could be even a bit lower (500, 550 or so). But if 620 is the real value of the Botanical, both the DRAGON and the EAGLE would be worth a bit more. If that's indeed 800, or 750 or 900 or even 1100 if you wait a few years... that's difficult to say, because there are not many guitars available for comparison.


BTW, the 900 I mentioned was just an intuitive brainwave, purely based on RARITY and the assumption that there are more members who want such a guitar (among them Dave_G, who is BTW very realistic about values and prices).

I tried an Aria PE-160 Dragon 13 years ago and it was NOT a great SOUNDING guitar. And I don't expect the Ibanez to be much better. What it musically needs, is a set of very good pickups (like Lace Holy Grails or something), but then it wouldn't be original anymore.

In its original condition, it's not really a player, but merely a looker, and a RARE one.

IF Exudusdragon is willing to sell, what he can get for it depends on where he is. If he's in the USA, our American friends will consider 850 dollars a pretty high price and you'll have a less heavy competition because of your euros.

Converting those Argus Euros to Dollars is not really fair, when a guitar is in the USA, because there's no American who will pay 1670 euros (about 2250 Dollars) for a 2355m, because that's Argus' estimate for it.

So, we use the Argus list when it suites us, and if not we reject it.

The best way to know the value of a guitar is putting it on eBay with good pics and info and a very high reserve in May or so, when people have no high expenses, and see what bids you get.


Ginger
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Exudusdragon
Username: Exudusdragon

Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   

How do I post pictures?
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Rockon2112
Username: Rockon2112

Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   

Check this...

http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/FAQMain.html
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Exudusdragon
Username: Exudusdragon

Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 8:04 pm:   

I am sorry but I can't figure it out. I will just sent you the link to the eBay.
Ebay Item #130104526073
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 8:06 pm:   

Way to go Ginger!!! And you got the balls to comment on my posts?
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 8:15 pm:   

Ex I'll post them for you..

my picture
my picture
my picture
my picture
my picture
my picture
my picture
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Michaelkaufman
Username: Michaelkaufman

Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   

It's on eBay:


Ebay Item #130104526073

mk
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Michaelkaufman
Username: Michaelkaufman

Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 22, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   

Oops...didn't see it posted beforehand.
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 12:02 am:   

Ginger (and I assume you gather yourself among the "experts" you mention)... you must have some serious numbnuts in your neck of the woods payin' over a grand for any condition "The Paul". I'll leave the rest of this lamb-baste to the fellas.

Oh, one more thing, I'M THE F*CKIN' "Sultan"!!!...After all, I've got 4.5 Ibanezeses.

On the dragon, I like the calouses on my left tips, but I'm not sure I'd like 'em on my right forarm... but that's just me.

Good luck!
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Munch
Username: Munch

Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 1:31 am:   

Ginger,

Harry's post was a full 24 hours before yours. There is no possibility that you didn't know Harry was working a deal. What could you possibly hope to achieve with your post? Nothing more than pure mischief!!! I don't know or care what the history is between Harry and you, but your actions in this case STINK!

You've got no hard data on prices for the Artwood Strats, only the same Argus prices that Harry based his offer on. Other than that, all you have is an opinion, and you know what they say about those!!

This was a case of PUT UP or SHUT UP - you did neither!!

Shame on you!
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Lvdvondel
Username: Lvdvondel

Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 4:44 am:   

When I read Gingers reply on Harry's feedback, it somehow makes sense, although my first reaction was also like "oh no Ginger, what are you doing now...". But, I don't see either why everyone should pull back because of Harry's interest in this guitar. And we all know, even if we are not all experts, that this guitar is more worth than 620 eur especially looking at the prices for common blazers and other simple Ibanez strat copies(the argus is only for insurance purposes!). From the thread starter, I understood his intention in the innitial post to put the item on e-bay. Harry tried to purchase the guitar cheap(er) offline, which of course is his good right. Ginger tried to inform the potential seller on the value of his instrument giving him the available information on the rarity of the instrument and his own personal estimation of it's value (knowing Ginger, I do not think he had anything else in mind). And, isn't that one of the purposes of this forum? I personaly like it better this way. Now, at least, everyone has the same opportunity to purchase this instrument and yes, I am interested too and will follow it very closely on ebay. And if I don't get it, at least I will know the value of it.
And yes, I can understand that Harry is disapointed but yes, I can also understand Ginger's good intentions. So, let's all stay friends and see what the output on ebay is (and I hope someone of this community get's it and give us a full review on it...)
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 7:04 am:   

Listen up guys, Ginger,

There was this appointment that the guitar should be put on Ebay after the seller and I would have achieved a definitive "deal or no deal".
I was asked about this guitar and about the value of it on my private mailbox before Exudusdragon put his message in this thread.
So YES, I damn well feel I have the right to have the first choice here! And having noticed that negotiation was due to happen (by my reaction in this thread) it would have been polite to step back or at least contact me.
Now the cat is out of the bag and see what happens! Of course the seller now is aware of the fight going on here and he has done what I would have done in this case: put the guitar on Ebay and let the dogs fight over it!

Ginger, if you could lay your hands on a 59 Les Paul Burst for 10 grand and by the interference of "a friend" the seller is getting informed about a much higher value of the guitar, how would you react??
My turn to say: GET REAL!!!!

And no, the whole world is not about me and my collection. In fact: I don't care about the stinking guitars at all and I would sell them in no time if the family's health would be involved. It's just some pieces of wood and a bit of metal.
They don't buy me life's luck.
Just like to hunt and of course I know there's competition and I won't get every item I'd like to score. Fine with me. But I expect some support from my Ibanez colleagues in stead of competition out of "our own camp".

Harry
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 8:02 am:   

Thanks for the support, Lieven. The way I feel it, I don't deserve this kind of negative criticism for treating a Newbie the way I think he should be treated: as a MEMBER. It doesn't matter to me, if a member has a status dating from 2001 or from April 2007. A MEMBER is a MEMBER. When he asks for information, he should get information, no more no less.

My gut feeling says 800-900 euros is possible when the guitar would be in Europe, which it isn't, by the way.
It is in the USA, the euro/dollar ration is not 1:1 anymore, which complicates things. How far will USA collectors go to get this baby? And what if that hermit from the Alps jumps in? Anything is possible... I hope that the buyer will use the ICW friendly link, because that is in our COMMON interest.

Let the market be the judge, whether I am right about the value or not.

Verdict: Apr-29-07 16:21:09 PDT in eBay court.


Ginger
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 8:19 am:   

Harry,

I had NO idea of what was in your IN box.
I read a question and an answer that wasn't one, so I gave one that is.


BTW, I would do the same with my guitars if my family's health was involved, and the stinking ones would go first, because they give me a headache.


Ginger
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Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix

Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 9:13 am:   

Oh dear.

Ginger - you gotta learn when to keep your mouth shut mate. We are all enthusiastic about Ibanez here but there comes a time when ones opinion isn't needed. In my book this is one of those times. Or at least until Harry had been given a fair crack at the whip.

six
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Lvdvondel
Username: Lvdvondel

Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 10:06 am:   

Harry's quote changes the story a litle bit: "There was this appointment that the guitar should be put on Ebay after the seller and I would have achieved a definitive "deal or no deal".
I was asked about this guitar and about the value of it on my private mailbox before Exudusdragon put his message in this thread."... but, how the hel was Ginger or any one else here supposed to be aware of this previous "out of ICW" discussion? Looks like a big misunderstanding to me so, let's put the guns away...
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 10:35 am:   

Read Harry's 1st post. I consider Gingers statement to Harry being upset an insult to Harry who has helped out here on ICW with REAL facts about vintage Ibanez to everyone who asks. Ginger on the other hand googles his way to every website including Harrys and makes it seem like he is Almighty Ibanez god of knowledge. If he spent more time with his fingers on the guitar then the keyboard then he could give some genuin players advice!

Harry I hope you end up with this guitar!

Ginger I hope your computer crashes and I don't see you here for at least 6 months!
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Paul_a
Username: Paul_a

Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 10:48 am:   

Harry is a good guy. From my experience he is always ready and willing to share his considerable knowledge of Ibanez guitars. I appreciate that. I don't believe that he would intentionally rip off anyone. Unlike some other guitar related websites that I could name, this one is relatively free of petty squabbling and vindictiveness. Let's keep it that way.
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 11:12 am:   

Okay guys, enough....

Letīs value Ginger for what he is and what he does. He provides us with much good information and heīs always there to do some research.
Once in a while he makes a "not so smart" decision, like he did now, in my opinion.
Letīs not hang the guy for that. We all make mistakes and Iīm sure I made some or hell knows Iīm gonna make some in the future.
Now that the hunting fields on this rare guitar are open and things canīt be redone, letīs talk about forgiveness...and may the best knight kill the dragon!

Kind greetz,
Harry
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 2:03 pm:   

Not saying it's happening here, ED, we owe you the benefit of the doubt, but Ginger, you have no idea whether a seller is playing you (us) simply to pump the sale (e.g. I see no difference between ED's handle here and on the eBay ad - perhaps he is handling the sale.)

Next time maybe step back, widen out and look at what MIGHT be going on on all fronts.

Best!
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 3:16 pm:   

Alright I'll keep the peace from here on in this thread!
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Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix

Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Monday, April 23, 2007 - 7:20 pm:   

I agree. Let bygones be bygones then. Hopefully all of us have learned a little more on how to conduct oneself in both word and wisdom.

six
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Nickuk
Username: Nickuk

Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 6:28 am:   

Hi,

Is this guitar def genuine?, Is it all original? I am not suggesting it is not genuine, however I would really appreciate some comments on the actual guitar itself......, its just that everything about this guitar looks so.... "clean & fresh", the Cornucopia model acquired by a member a few years ago def looks 1974, Pls can the experts among us give some input on this guitar when comparing it to pics of the known 1974 Cornucopia model ?

The Headstock :

1. The headstock carving looks shallower and less defined than the Cornucopia model.
2. There is no build up of dust and dirt in the recessed part of the carving, the carving looks so clean and fresh.
3. The carved Eagle motif in the headstock is lacking its white dot "eye".
4. The area of the headstock around the bottom "E" tuner is lacking carving altogether.
5. The truss rod cover looks so new, and has black (not nickel) screws (no big deal).

The Fingerboard :

1. Is this maple, looks almost like Beech?
2. Is the fret wire a bit thin?


The Body :

1. Is this Walnut?
2. Carving look so fresh?
3. Wear on revese of body, does this look right?


The scratchplate :

1. No fading, looks new?
2. No fading to the control knobs, or even the pickup selector knob.
3. No fading to the pickup covers.
4. Compare the pickup switch selector slot, thicker / wider slot, squared off ends, not thin with rounded off ends like the Cornucopia model's scratchplate.

Tremolo cover :

1. Has six holes rather than "slot" when compared to the Cornucopia model.

I repeat I am not saying it is not genuine or not totally original, I would just appreciate answers to these questions by people who know a hell of a lot more than me about these guitars.

Many thanks,

NickUK

P.S. Perhaps someone who knows how, can post the pics of the known Cornucopia model, to assist with replies and answers, thanks
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 7:23 am:   

Hi Nick

I have no reasons to doubt this guitar is genuine and 100% stock. I believe it has been what we call a "closet sleeper" for many years, in other words: (almost)new old stock, allthough it has some buckle wear on the backside of the body.

Besides: Before he opened a thread on this guitar here Exudusdragon sent me some pictures where the guitar was taken apart (no strings, bridge saddles removed etc.), probably for a good cleaning.
Apart from that: remember that the carvings were done by hand in Taiwan, so how "deep" the carvings are done can differ from example to example (referring to your doubts about the headstock carving).
I even saw the genuine 3-way switch was on this dragon, while on my own Cornucopia this part was changed by a former owner to a 5-way switch.

I'm sure there's nothing fishy about this guitar.

Kind greetz,
Harry
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 7:25 am:   

PS

...and that's why I'm dying to catch it....



Harry
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 8:01 am:   

Harry I thought it was supposed to be "catch the tiger" not "catch the dragon'?
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Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix

Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 9:40 am:   

Good luck Harry.

six
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 12:35 pm:   

Intent is a critical issue. It certainly is a critical issue when it comes to law and penalties. You can kill someone (accidently) you can kill someone with malice aforethought. The penalties are miles apart for one reason.... the intent factor. If Ginger had ill-intent, that's one thing. If it was an accident, that's another. And... I'm not saying which way it went in this instance because I just don't know. However... nothing is gained from bad experiences if we just let it lay as is. We may be able to gain from this experience and all mutually agree (right now) on an acceptable-to-all scenario for situations like this that may arise in the future. I would only make the suggestion that if an instance like this arises again in the future... one may allow a fellow ICW member to complete his negotiations BEFORE offering any advice (no matter how well-intended) the advice may be. That seems fair to me. I feel for Harry here, BIG TIME and I myself would have felt hurt by that post up there but... like I said, I can't say there was any ill-intent. There's only one person here who knows the true intent. I believe evyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. So... just a suggestion, amongst friends.... next time... contact members off-site to see if your well-intended posts may actually cause some conflict. The one thing that's non-debateable here is that harry was OBVIOUSLY going for it tooth an nail and that post hurt. But, like I said, it doesn't mean it was intentional, although, on the surface, it certainly would appear that way. I'd rather think it was unintentional and that in the future, we have an understanding... amongst friends... on how to act. Yes?
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Jeffsailor
Username: Jeffsailor

Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 1:35 pm:   

I'd say its more a case of "Wreckless Indifference"...
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g

Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 5:22 pm:   

Hence the moniker "Mr Chatty"
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Ibnose
Username: Ibnose

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 2:37 pm:   

I'm not very familiar to you fellows so hopefully its ok to post an opinion. If 2 people are going to duke it out, its much better to stay silent and give them a chance to work things out. Their dialogue might end up being thoughtful and sincere. But when everyone weighs in with their input, tensions can escalate quickly and feelings get hurt. I think Harry's post to Ginger shows a ton of class and although I've only been following ICW for a few months, these two members share very helpful info. I suggest that we follow Harry's example. Looking forward to continuing helpful info from H and G.
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Jchester
Username: Jchester

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 4:40 pm:   

Well said, 'nose!
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 2:25 am:   

How the f*ck do ya clean that thing?!!


So, again I guess I'll have to say it:

One has to push the 'go' button twice to post out here. We all have an opportunity to cancel...twice!!

Little friendly advice Ginger, you shoulda canceled. Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt here, from what I read of your posts, you just can't help yourself from talking.......at great lengths MOST of the time with much of your bloviating facts wrong (don't take it personally cuz I don't give a rip what you think of me,) and this time, it got you in trouble...period!

Believe me Ginger, I'm not alone in this sentiment.

Learn the lesson...adjust and move on!
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 6:25 pm:   

Strings... "BLOVIATING?!!!!" Listen, I don't even have the slightest idea what that means but... I like it ALOT. (Not that it's directed at someone, I just like it in-and-of itself.)

Once I find out what it means, I'm gonna try to use it in a sentence myself. You're my hero now. Actually, you always have been, "bloviating" just solidifies it. here ya go, I'll try using it in a sentence without knowing what it means yet...

"She was on her knees, "bloviating" the lead guitarist with the Ibanez ar5000."

How was that?
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Talajuha
Username: Talajuha

Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 7:21 pm:   

This topic is full of bullshit, or more politically correct nonsence ...
It happens all the time here that somebody comes in between when you think you may get a good deal ...
And is it fair that somebody who has a valuable guitar doesn't get the right information?
Or should ICW be a closed club of some "respected" members?

Juha


Juha
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 8:31 pm:   

Talajuha... you're right, in a way... but I just want to mention the "intent" aspect again. See... that's the critical issue. Leaving specifics out.... and, in general, did person "a" intentionally do something subversive to person "b" ...or... not. To me, that's really the point and like I said, in this case here, we'll never know if it was "intentional" subversion and I would always like to give the benefit of the doubt and think that it was not intentional because if it was, that would be a lousy thing to do. So... if person "b" either today, tomorrow or yesterday (when these instances occur) states it was not intentional, well, I think we'd all like to take a man at his word and give him the benefit of the doubt. Then again, someone might state... "if it looks like a snake, crawls like a snake, bites like a snake... it's a snake." I stated that so I can say now (AGAIN) WE'LL NEVER REALLY KNOW. Since we're amongst friends, I believe the right thing to do is give the benefit of the doubt. Hey, I just beat a dead horse and there's no sense in that either. Shall we move on?
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 12:33 am:   

Tj - "right information"?, boy is that a subjective thing out here. And PC? Why, I take that as an insult! ;

Bob - "Bloviate", not really a formal word and you probably don't want to know where I stole it. It describes the act of spewing forth everything that come to mind in order to impress others. In brief; Blowhard or Diarrhea of the Mouth (or, fingers as the case may be.)

Your translation sounds more fun tho...
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   

Good word Strings. Should be in Webster's.
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 1:10 pm:   

P.S. - Talajuha... pardon my political correctness. I'm usually INCORRECT about most things so... this was just a fluke really. But I do agree with what you said.
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Michaelkaufman
Username: Michaelkaufman

Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   

Harry - congrats!

mk
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 7:28 pm:   

Hi all!

Pfieuuuwwww!!!!!!!!


I have to sell a few other babies (non Ibanez) in order to fill the financial gap...
I have a beautiful "close to mint" Les Paul Classic Premium Plus with a beautiful heritage honeyburst top (killer stripes!) for sale now. Anyone?

Kind greetz,
Harry
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Sixvsix
Username: Sixvsix

Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 9:23 pm:   

Yeah well done Harry. That must complete your carved collection quite nicely.

six
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Emilio
Username: Emilio

Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:07 pm:   

Very nice specimen Harry!
Congrats,you deserved it
cheers
emilio
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Jcmc64
Username: Jcmc64

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:46 pm:   

All's well that ends well...what a ride. Enjoy her!
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:34 am:   

Thanks guys!

You guess what my main goal will be: to once own all three of them.
That would be the ultimate Ibanez collectorīs dream!
So now I guess the Eagle hunting season has started....
Might take a few years, though!

Iīm very happy with this new "baby".

Harry
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 7:11 am:   

Harry congrats on your conquest! Hope the Eagle will land at your door soon!
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Paul_a
Username: Paul_a

Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 7:18 am:   

Nice one Harry!
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 7:20 am:   

I guess Orval is calling his insurance expert for a review of the coverage now.

As I promissed Harry and Exudusdragon by e-mail, I kept silent about this item during the auction.

Some background info:

- Exudusdragon sold this guitar for a friend in an "economic bind".
- This friend got it from his sister, when she went on a religious mission, and who had got it for babysitting the kids of a band.
- He even had a tattoo of this dragon put on his back.

This money lands on a place where it is really needed.

I think we have a happy buyer and a happy seller here. Sorry for intervening, but I felt I had to give both members a fair chance for a fair deal.


Ginger
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Strings
Username: Strings

Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 8:45 am:   

Awww, your the best Ginger!!! Just the best!!!!!!!!!
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 9:48 am:   

Harry... you must be pretty excited, I'm excited for you. Big Congrats. Some times, the axes that are the biggest ordeal to obtain wind up being the "special" ones and worth every bit of the effort. It's part of the guitar... the ordeal.
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Johns
Username: Johns

Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 10:48 am:   

Harry:

Congrats!

But I have to say that I'm more than a little surprised that this guitar went for so much. I hope that you used an ICW-friendly link to place your winning bid! :-)
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Lvdvondel
Username: Lvdvondel

Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   

Congrats Harry!
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Jcmc64
Username: Jcmc64

Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   

Johns...ditto. Since you mentioned it first, if you would of asked me up front, no way would I'd thought an Ibanez bolt on neck (admittedly a very rare\ special one) would go for $3500. That has to be some sort of record around here I'd think. But, looking at the bid history, at least 4 other bidders thought it worth at least $2500 or more. That makes the beginning of this thread even harder to swallow.
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 6:44 pm:   

Ginger how much did you get of the cut?
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Jchester
Username: Jchester

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 7:56 pm:   

"This friend got it from his sister, ..."

I just wonder how much SHE got out of the deal.
SHE was the one with the hard-luck-story... not him!

I think you got suckered, Ginger.

And now, Harry's "in an economic bind".
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, April 30, 2007 - 8:01 pm:   

If someone can pay the rent for 7 months or the dentist to fix his teeth and ends up with a smile on his face, that's enough reward for me, Brian. I don't eat from other people's misery.


Ginger
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Munch
Username: Munch

Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 2:26 am:   

$3,500 - I see it but I don't believe it!!!!!!!!!!

What the??????????

Never in my wildest dreams did I think it would go for that kinda money...
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 5:37 am:   

Hi all

Let me explain about my collectorīs attitude and how it has "evolved" in the last two years. As you know my collection is that big in the meantime, that (and I know this must sound snobbish) I more and more get "stuck" in hunting models I already have, only in different colour variations. Jazzbasses, Telecasters, Les Pauls, Strats etc. Thatīs fun too, but it hardly happens that "a big collectorsī fish" pops up on Ebay like it did this time.
Spending how much money on things is always related to the question: how bad do you want it?
I wanted this Dragon Strat really bad: I already had the botanical version and my ultimate dream is to once own all three of them.
I do have an "Ibanez budget", but in this special case I sold a Tokai Strat for 545 dollar and Iīm about to sell a beautiful mint Gibby Les Paul Classic Premium Plus for 2300 dollar, so I already "closed the financial gap" for the biggest part. Thatīs always been my policy: if a ultra rare Ibanez is within reach I will part of some "non Ibanez" items in order to (partly)finance the new Ibanez item. Collecting Ibanez is always number one priority.
And besides: Iīd rather buy this Dragon than 8 Ibanez bolt on Les Pauls that I could buy for the same price. This Dragon is a once in a lifetime chance, bolt on Les Pauls (or whatever common Ibanez model) will be offered over the next 30 years.
I think these carved strats have the same mystical collectorsī attraction like the Artwood Twins have. And the carved strats are even rarer!

Like Jcmc64 said: I was not the only lunatic bidding that high: at least 4 others were with me and agreed on a certain "desirability" of this unique guitar.

Kind greetz,
Harry
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 5:46 am:   

I know, Mark. As a son of a luthier, you know what a $3,500.- handbuilt guitar looks like. But this was purely because of the RARITY.

When I saw it climb to $1350.- so quickly, I began to think $1500-1800 was possible.
When the $1500 was on the screen I thought Harry would need $1800 PLUS some "topping", because sometimes guitars are sold before our noses with a few dollars or even just a few cents difference. So I was figuring, what kind of "topping" should he use? $23.45 No, then better make it 46 cents, because anyone could think of that. Perhaps 1870 (a Dutch beer)? But then I saw bidder 7 (who seemed to be a shill bidder if you'd ask me) making his $2500.- offer. And then it went on and on...
I kept clicking the refresh button and I saw the strangest tactical move from Harry I had ever seen. In the last minutes he was on top with $3250.- and then... he retracted and bidder 10 was on top again with $3050.- and while this guy put his arms in the air, Harry's final bid appeared just a few seconds before the auction ending. Too late to react. Harry wrote me this "tactical move" was actually due to a typo, which I won't explain. I'll leave that up to him (but I can understand if he wants to keep it a secret, because it's a BRILLIANT mistake, but also a VERY RISKY one).
Unbelieveable...
Thrilling and unbelieveable.

I think the presentation of the guitar was very good and must have been prepared way before, because they cleaned it, made professional pics and used your ad with Carl Perkins in it, which is not so easy to find on ICW (beautiful material BTW).


Ginger
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Munch
Username: Munch

Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 10:06 pm:   

Hi Guys,

It seems carved guitars are quite a hot topic right now. Here's a thread over at the Gretschpages about these curious beasties.

http://www.gretschpages.com/forum/other-guitars/ar t-or-abomination/3317/page1/

Looks like more people over there hate 'em than love 'em. I think they'd freak if they knew how much Harry paid for his guitar!!

What a wacky world we live in.

Good onya Harry.

Cheers,

Mark
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g

Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:43 am:   

Munch.....They even included my Dragon guitar !
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Nigel
Username: Nigel

Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 9:09 am:   

Ideals and rights are illusions, gentlemen.
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Tristan
Username: Tristan

Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 2:11 pm:   

It's hard to imagine Carl Perkins playing something like that..
congrats Harry btw ;)
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Goat
Username: Goat

Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:51 am:   

You people are crazy, I'm about to start selling some of mine and looking for sane folks, lol. I won't be worrying about back-channel deals, just watch ebay, they aren't going to be listed here and I wouldn't even consider listing a guitar here with the way Harry tried to lowball dude on this one, and yes I'll be letting at least one VERY rare axe go (only seen one other sell since I've been collecting 7 or 8 years and condition was terrible on it!!). I'll be working them up along with my other listings this week probably but I'll post here to let folks know they're listed once I get them ready. I'm going to miss them, but they're just firewood if the market is crap... and it will be soon!! Congrats on getting it Harry, but frankly, giving a low offer like that initially, then claiming the moral high ground is sketchy my man. I'm glad I came in after all this was over or I might have said something rude prior to you paying out the butt for this thing.
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   

Goat, why do you say "The market will be crap soon?" And ... not to start the fire but.... why do you take such exception to someone trying to get a good deal on an axe? We all do that... don't we? You find a nice axe, you try to get the best price you can. What should we do then? If someone will accept $500 for, say, an ar5000, should we say to the seller, thanx for letting me have your ar5000 for $500 but... I'm gonna give you $3,000 anyway because that's what it's worth? NOT! No one in their right minds would do that so... how can you fault Harry? To me, trying to get a decent deal (sometimes) is part of the fun. What about that lady that bought a painting at a yard sale for $3, she bought it for the frame really and when she popped the painting out to get the frame, there was an original copy of the Declaration of Independence back there, worth millions. Should she go back to the garage sale and say "Listen... here's a million dollars instead of the $3 I gave you for the painting."? Again... NOT! So... even if I am wrong, and I may be.... I think you're a little tough on Harry there. As far as listing your guitars on Ebay... how do you know an ICW guy won't make you an offer that's completely acceptable to you and that offer may be even greater than what the axe will generate on Ebay? If you're letting rare ones go, maybe ICW would be your best bet because... we know what they're worth and you know what they're worth and we'd probably be willing to shell out what you want for the axes. I guess you could say "Fight it out on Ebay then." But... I always think we're amongst friends here and I think it's cool that we give each other first shot at nice Ibanez axes. Dave just did it (although he's not returning my e-mails), we all do it, quite frequently and I haven't heard any mumblings between ICW guys on deals we've made amongst ourselves. Well... just some input for consideration for you, with.... the best of intentions really. Good luck with whatever you decide, I hope it goes well for you.
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 4:01 pm:   

Goat

My first bid of 850 dollars was because:

1 The Argus list estimated that amount as a reasonable value for a carved strat.

2 I paid about the same amount for the other carved strat I already had.

So at that time I had every reason to believe that my "first shot offer" was a reasonable one.
I could never show better that Iīm NOT the bargain hunter you believe I am by seriously bidding much higher as it obviously turned out to be necessary since there were many bidders that were willing to pay a high price for this guitar. If I insisted on getting this carved strat for a steal-price I would have backed off as soon as it went over one grand.

I agree with Bobzilla. Collecting is also about having luck sometimes.
And like Bobzilla illustrated with some striking examples: donīt try to be holier than the pope, mate!
Try to turn this matter around: If youīre going to sell in a while and you expect a certain guitar to bring you 600 bucks, would you refuse a 800 dollar bid or send the bidder an Email that 800 is too much and that he can have it for 600? Come on!

Harry
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Dave_g
Username: Dave_g

Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 6:24 pm:   

Goat....What the F*** are you blithering about ? Where does that attitude come from ? Whats wrong with selling your guitar to a member if the ICW? If your afraid of someone offering you a lowball offer for your "Very Rare" ax, just tell them in advance what you want for it-if they don't want to pay you what you want-list it on Flea bay. The point is that your guitar, even if it is "Very Rare" is only worth what someone will pay for it , regardless of what you may think its worth. You should realize that most of the Vintage Ibanez collectors do know -more or less- what these guitars are worth, so an inquiry on this site will result in a quick sale, and -most likely- anyone who will pay you what this "rarity' is worth is a member anyway !

I have sold 19 Vintage Ibanez guitars in the past ten days to members of this board, each one selling at exactly what price I wanted to get for it. No hassles with auctions or fees-we keep these goodies in the "family" and I get to talk to fellow collectors for free !

(Steve, 'zilla, Mike K, Chris m, James, and Sheldon-I didn't forget you all, I'll be sending your picts etc this weekend)

I totally disagree with your assesment of the "market" Ibanez guitars have been on a steady increase for well over 10 years with no end in sight. If I could afford to, I would hold on to all of them-cause they aren't gonna make any more !

I, for one, cannot wait to see your "Rare" vintage auction-I'm always looking for an addition to my harem, I just don't understand why your so against just listing it here with whatever price you think is fair......
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Ibanezfreak1960
Username: Ibanezfreak1960

Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   

Dave he DID list it here, just in an arrogant way!
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 7:49 am:   

Goat, I really am interested to know why you think the IBZ market will be "crap" soon. I'd have to disagree but, if you know something... I am totally interested in knowing what makes you form that opinion.
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Gemberbier
Username: Gemberbier

Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 9:52 am:   

Goat just wrote "the market".
Perhaps he expects an economic collapse like in 2001/2002.
Stay out of high buildings and airplanes.

Hausses and depressions come in waves. So if the top of the wave has been reached, the only way is down. Just nobody knows were the top is. As I see it, we have only just recovered from the 2001/2002 crisis. It all depends on how much time the economy gets to breath up before the next attack.


Ginger
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 10:19 am:   

"BLITHERING" !!! (BLOVIATING") ? !!!
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Tbplayer
Username: Tbplayer

Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:08 pm:   

goat must not watch "antiques roadshow". why he is so unhappy with the icw family trying to make a good deal for a great piece? bobzilla hit it right on the head. if i can work a deal where everyone is happy, great. when was the last time you paid sticker for a car? as for the market going to "crap", i just saw a destroyer go for 2k US. no ebb yet. and if the folks on this board are "insane" please feel free,to stay away.
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Bobzilla
Username: Bobzilla

Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   

Harry, do you have it in hand yet? Photo's... review?
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Harry
Username: Harry

Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Monday, May 14, 2007 - 3:06 pm:   

Bobzilla

No, it will take a couple of weeks, I guess.
As soon as I have itīI promise to put on pictures and a review.

Harry
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Chazmo
Username: Chazmo

Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 2:24 am:   

I admire your passion, folks. I've always been a pack-rat, but never had the means to be a collector. You guys that trade and collect these vintage Ibanez beauties should keep in mind that you create the market as much as you participate in it.

My opinion on vintage Ibanez guitars is that they are seriously undervalued. While I won't comment on the sale of this particular dragon strat, I will disagree with anyone's belief that the market for these guitars will tank any time in the near future. I'd be significantly more nervous about paying the serious money for a vintage Gibson or Fender that folks are throwing around out there. That's where the real risk lies (IMO).
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Lvdvondel
Username: Lvdvondel

Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   

European figures and expectations:
Consumer confidence is going upwards (this means, that instead of saving their earnings, people start spending again). General consumer expences are up with 4,5% compared with 2005 (you see that they are spending again-), consumers are spending more money on durables than they did the last five years. Marketeers expect further growth in the expences on Leisure. Overall impression: We had the bad seven years behind us, now we are up for the good next seven years, especially in Spain and Belgium. Expectations for vintage Ibanez guitars keeping all this in mind: prices will rise!

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